Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

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2014
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby 2014 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:13 pm

You are unreasonably risk averse IMO, but it is your money and your future not mine and you have to do what will enable you to sleep better at night. I honestly believe that waiting a year and working is very rarely a bad choice too.

Your chances of BigLaw are basically as good at CCN as they can be though. They each place 75-85% of the class into 2L SAs and there will always be a portion of the class that doesn't participate, is an introverted disaster in interviews, or has abysmal grades. You can probably self select out of all three of those, and if you were to fall into any of them YHS might not be able to save you either.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:22 pm

2014 wrote:
Your chances of BigLaw are basically as good at CCN as they can be though. They each place75-85% 50-60%??? in biglaw SAs



Proof or the 75-85% shit didn't happen.

But I agree it is a totally good investment as long as OP is remotely interest in law.

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banjo
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby banjo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:53 pm

We know that 85% of CLS grads and 80% of NYU students who participated in OCI in 2011 (so c/o 2013) received an offer: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=187337. I don't know what it is for Chicago. I think 77% of the total class got something, with a few more going to prestigious boutiques. To contrast, in the boom years 97.5% of CLS OCI participants got something (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=156483&start=150#p5453311).

So ITE it's still possible to get screwed at CCN. It's in the OP's best interest to minimize the chances of striking out by getting WE. I reject the idea that CCN grads always can find gainful employment even if they strike out. 29% of NYU c/o 2011 were un/underemployed according to viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723. That number was over 30% for Chicago. Things are better now, but the OP's anxieties are not unreasonable.

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2014
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby 2014 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:02 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
2014 wrote:
Your chances of BigLaw are basically as good at CCN as they can be though. They each place75-85% 50-60%??? in biglaw SAs



Proof or the 75-85% shit didn't happen.

But I agree it is a totally good investment as long as OP is remotely interest in law.

Notice how I said got SAs :P

If you or he does something to fuck up getting an offer from that SA that's another issue altogether. If you have one the game is yours to lose.

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goldenflash19
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby goldenflash19 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:03 pm

OP, you're in a decent spot regardless of either option you choose. I'm pretty debt averse, but I consider T-6 at half-price a great deal. Still, your chances at YSH would only increase with WE. If I were in your shoes, I would probably wait and get the WE. Mention how you've matured with your year off and talk about your WE in your new app. You will have better, at worse the same, odds at YSH, and the WE will help you at OCI.

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sunynp
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby sunynp » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:12 pm

I would try to defer. I am as debt averse as you (if not more). I understand where you are coming from. If you feel better getting a couple of years of WE and saving up some money I would do it. I don't have any input as to whether it will help your applications but it won't hurt.

I understand the biglaw lottery and how it isn't as easy to win as people think. And, people get laid off quickly even as junior associates if there isn't enough work. You are theoretically in a great position to get biglaw but you don't have a single grade yet, so you really don't know.

Me. I wouldn't take the debt if I wasn't ready for school. School isn't going anywhere. (on the other hand, it isn't getting cheaper either... on the other other hand, applications are down so you may be in a much better position with those numbers in two years.)

I would wait. If I can't defer I would withdraw. Your acceptances are not a fluke and withdrawing won't hurt you.

noggo10
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby noggo10 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:56 am

I appreciate all the input. I still have a few contacts in the non-profit world from various internships, so I'm going to reach out to them. If I can get something lined up I will go with that. If not, as people pointed out, half price at a T-6 is about as good of a chance at Big Law as you'll get really.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:07 am

OP, I'm risk averse too. I get it. It's a lot of money. That doesn't mean it's a bad investment. I'm going to a worse school (lower T14) for less money. I still consider it to be a safe investment. You're in one of the best positions you can possibly be in, even ITE. If you're questioning law school itself, that's a separate discussion, but you shouldn't be questioning if your options are worth the money.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby roaringeagle » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:40 am

Yo, it is very normal to get cold feet at this point. It all depends on how you are feeling physically and emotionally. If you think you are out of it for some reason, then wait. If you are worried just about the money, that is normal too. However, coming from a top 6 I really don't think you have to worry about not finding a job. Also, calculate the payments you will be making. Are they reasonable? I calculated payments of roughly 690 a month for 10 years for my Stafford, similar for Grad plus or about 1400 a month total. If you are making market or even slightly below, that is less than 20k a year. That's really quite manageable. Also you are not borrowing from the Mafia here. The worst thing that can possibly happen is you will fuck up your credit score. But that's not going to happen.

I read an article on above the law about a guy who had trouble paying back his student loans. Basically the guy decided law was not for him, and he just quit. What happens next is exactly what I said: Your credit will go down. The govt. sold his loans to a collections company. The nice thing about that is that you can cut a deal with them for a lower monthly payment. That scenario is not pretty but I highly doubt that will happen to you. PM me if you have any concerns you do not want to share with everyone. Not having a buffer or backup is tough but consider this: Most people especially now with the recessed economy are not coming from a position of great financial strength. Everyone is struggling to get ahead.

EnchantedJockstrap
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby EnchantedJockstrap » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:17 am

OP,

Glad you took my comments the way I was hoping you would. lol. Bonus points if you can name the movie I quoted. It also seemed appropriate here.

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sunynp
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby sunynp » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:22 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:OP, I'm risk averse too. I get it. It's a lot of money. That doesn't mean it's a bad investment. I'm going to a worse school (lower T14) for less money. I still consider it to be a safe investment. You're in one of the best positions you can possibly be in, even ITE. If you're questioning law school itself, that's a separate discussion, but you shouldn't be questioning if your options are worth the money.


I am trying to understand the use of law school as an investment. I just never thought of school that way. It isn't like I could have spent the money on law school for something else other than school. The option is not going and not spending the money or going to law school (or some other kind of school) and spending the money.

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sunynp
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby sunynp » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:25 am

noggo10 wrote:I appreciate all the input. I still have a few contacts in the non-profit world from various internships, so I'm going to reach out to them. If I can get something lined up I will go with that. If not, as people pointed out, half price at a T-6 is about as good of a chance at Big Law as you'll get really.


Probably. Im just wondering what admissions next year and the year after will look like. So hard to tell what will happen. No doubt you are in almost as good a spot as possible for biglaw.

Good luck. Just make sure that whatever choice you make you don't spend time second guessing yourself. I've wasted a lot of time thinking about things I might have done differently, and it is all just time and energy thrown away. Whatever you do, really go for it and give it your best.

Ramsey
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby Ramsey » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:57 am

1) my family also went through bankruptcy, so I do understand why you are so risk-averse. However, you will have take on a greater risk to make a meaningful jump, especially a financial one. I think you should seize on the opportunity (Columbia at a half-price) to make the most out of it: channel that fear into your coursework, finish at the top 25% of your class, and land a biglaw job.


2) Teaching English abroad: I'm originally from East Asia and a rapidly growing number of native speakers come to this region to teach English - in fact, there are so many of them now that the competition is more fierce and pays less (there was once a time that as long as you look "foreign" you made huge money, but those days are lone gone)

You are obviously a smart and determined person so you will do fine, but unless you are from a "name" university (HYS, other Ivy league schools, or Berkeley and UCLA because they are very well known in Asia for some reason.) you won't score a fortune. Top 30 US university doesn't mean much in Asia.

timbs4339
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:05 pm

I just graduated Columbia at half price. I'll probably have about 110K to pay back starting in November. I'm solidly middle-class and do not have a parental bailout plan. Unlike you I was not very confident in being able to find a decent job if I deferred, as I graduated from a lower-ranked college with a worse GPA in 2009 and could not even find a part-time job at the mall during the summer before law school.

Anyway, I struck out at EIP after 1L year and had a pretty miserable two years of it before finally snagging a couple of good offers (relative to where I was before law school, maybe not relative to my peers 75% of whom are working biglaw). Although I was pretty despondent about not having a job up until about April, I'm ultimately satisfied about where I ended up and I think I'm better off than my non-law school friends and where I would have been if I'd not gone to law school.

Some warnings, though, I do still know several people without any offers, with three days before the bar. I also think that waiting probably would have worked out better assuming I could have kept my scholarship. Waiting one year with even the small 5-10% boost in hiring would have been worth it- I didn't at the time because I didn't know what to do during the year off. However, waiting would not have been worth 75K. It really comes down to whether you think you can keep/increase your scholly.

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ChikaBoom
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby ChikaBoom » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:20 pm

OP, you've presented a solid case for both sides. You're in a great position as is, but the only thing left to decide is if you want to try for a better position. Work experience can only help you in the real world, and increase your chances of landing a job later on.

Appreciate your position and do what makes you feel right.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:12 pm

sunynp wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:OP, I'm risk averse too. I get it. It's a lot of money. That doesn't mean it's a bad investment. I'm going to a worse school (lower T14) for less money. I still consider it to be a safe investment. You're in one of the best positions you can possibly be in, even ITE. If you're questioning law school itself, that's a separate discussion, but you shouldn't be questioning if your options are worth the money.


I am trying to understand the use of law school as an investment. I just never thought of school that way. It isn't like I could have spent the money on law school for something else other than school. The option is not going and not spending the money or going to law school (or some other kind of school) and spending the money.


You're investing in your own human capital. By doing so, you increase your potential lifetime earnings significantly.

jurisx
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby jurisx » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:22 pm

If you are worried about risk, go to Cooley. With your stats you will get a full ride (no debt)

If law school is so easily tossed aside for you, might as well get the free JD and go from there.

timbs4339
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Re: Would it be crazy to withdraw right now?

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:19 pm

jurisx wrote:If you are worried about risk, go to Cooley. With your stats you will get a full ride (no debt)

If law school is so easily tossed aside for you, might as well get the free JD and go from there.


It's a financial investment in getting a job, not a long-term relationship. Although if corporations are people, I suppose you could marry your law school.




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