W&L on the rise???

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jarofsoup
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby jarofsoup » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:If you are looking for a school on the rise, might I recommend Arizona State University, a school where employers are heading to OCI in DROVES?



Does anyone actually know what is happening at ASU?

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sunynp
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby sunynp » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:27 pm

Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.


anyone agree with this?

No, I don't agree. I think you have to take the employment statistics as they are, not how they might be in some other life. I don't for a second believe that a large portion of W&L could get biglaw but are choosing not to do so. Also, 9% of the class is employed by the school.

There may be some Southern firms that go beyond top 10% or 15% at W&L. I don't think many NYC firms will do so.

You would be mistaken to go there expecting biglaw.

FlanSolo
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby FlanSolo » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:29 pm

Tigerrr wrote:following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.


anyone agree with this?


Well, quickly to address the GPA cut-off point, the cut-off does not mean that anyone with grades above it is in the driver's seat. Firms tend to take a certain range of kids from each school, and at a small, non-T14, rural school like W&L, these numbers are going to be relatively low. So let's just say Dead Guy Dead Guy & Dead Guy likes to take 2-3 W&L kids, and the cutoff is top 35%. Well, the class size is roughly 130, so the top-third is about 40 kids competing for 2-3 slots. Those slots are going to overwhelming go to kids closer to top 10% than the top 35%. Given that there just won't be a ton of firms recruiting at W&L, and that these firms won't take many kids from W&L, you can see why just meeting the cut-off doesn't ensure a job.

Tigerrr
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby Tigerrr » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:33 pm

sunynp wrote:
Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.



anyone agree with this?

No, I don't agree. I think you have to take the employment statistics as they are, not how they might be in some other life. I don't for a second believe that a large portion of W&L could get biglaw but are choosing not to do so. Also, 9% of the class is employed by the school.

There may be some Southern firms that go beyond top 10% or 15% at W&L. I don't think many NYC firms will do so.

You would be mistaken to go there expecting biglaw.


The firm I was talking about was D.C.....But why is so hard for you to believe that people that go to law school dont want Biglaw...some are very content with working in a different field of law...(not arguing against your point...just interested in your response)

MrAnon
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby MrAnon » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:33 pm

Tigerrr's posts read like flame being posted by someone who has an agenda for the school.

I think any season law school person around this board knows the deal with these types of schools. They never sent a lot of kids to biglaw, and after the economy tanked and since '08 the situation has gotten much worse for their students. Don't kid yourself Tigerrrr.

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Ruxin1
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby Ruxin1 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:35 pm

IBTDroves of Employers at OCI

rad lulz
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.


anyone agree with this?

No.

A biglaw job is generally a MUCH better outcome than a state court clerkship. Unlike in the case of most federal clerkships, large firms will NOT keep offers open for state court clerks, and biglaw firms do not actively seek to hire state court clerks. Furthermore, one generally needs lower grades to snag a state clerkship than a biglaw jerb. Furthermore, W&L sends few people to the MUCH more desirable federal clerkships. Because, as mentioned above, exit options to firms from state clerkships will likely be of the small firm variety, there is little reason to choose a state clerkship over a biglaw job because the biglaw job will provide a higher degree of permanence than a temporary clerkship, more money, and a more diverse array of exit options (due to prestige and training on large, sophisticated matters) to other large firms, boutiques, smaller firms, in-house positions with large corporations, PI, and govt. Most importantly, big money is better to pay off big debt. Small firm pay scales can't match that (think starting at $50kish).

As someone who went through OCI, I can say that almost everyone at my school participated. In addition to the reasons I said above about large firms opening doors, big firms hire before you pass the bar. Many small firms/PI/govt. will not. Also you can't really trade up to a large firm from smaller firms; the model is based on 2L hiring. I'd estimate that something like 85% of my classmates participated in OCI.

Just because they look at people from the top third doesn't mean that firm will hire people who are merely top third people as a matter of course.

MrAnon
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby MrAnon » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:37 pm

Tigerrr wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.



anyone agree with this?

No, I don't agree. I think you have to take the employment statistics as they are, not how they might be in some other life. I don't for a second believe that a large portion of W&L could get biglaw but are choosing not to do so. Also, 9% of the class is employed by the school.

There may be some Southern firms that go beyond top 10% or 15% at W&L. I don't think many NYC firms will do so.

You would be mistaken to go there expecting biglaw.


The firm I was talking about was D.C.....But why is so hard for you to believe that people that go to law school dont want Biglaw...some are very content with working in a different field of law...(not arguing against your point...just interested in your response)


Lots of people may not want biglaw, but the economic model of law school pretty much demands that you consider it once you have the debt hanging around your neck. Tuition levels that W&L demand are not calculated to be paid back by people working in the public sector. They are calculated and only payable by persons making biglaw income. This excludes of course further government assistance like IBR.

Moreover--You start this thread out arguing that W&L gives a good shot at biglaw or whatever, and after that gets decimated you are trying to argue that maybe not everyone wants biglaw so W&L is okay too? What's your point? The reality is that the chances of biglaw out of W&L are pretty slim, period. Maybe 1 in 8 students. Beyond that its not even clear that the majority of W&L students are finding full time legal positions of any kind.

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sunynp
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby sunynp » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:46 pm

Tigerrr wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.



anyone agree with this?

No, I don't agree. I think you have to take the employment statistics as they are, not how they might be in some other life. I don't for a second believe that a large portion of W&L could get biglaw but are choosing not to do so. Also, 9% of the class is employed by the school.

There may be some Southern firms that go beyond top 10% or 15% at W&L. I don't think many NYC firms will do so.

You would be mistaken to go there expecting biglaw.


The firm I was talking about was D.C.....But why is so hard for you to believe that people that go to law school dont want Biglaw...some are very content with working in a different field of law...(not arguing against your point...just interested in your response)


1. You said you wanted biglaw in the OP.
2. I didn't say that people don't want to do other kinds of law. What I said is that I don't believe that a large percentage of W&L even had a chance at biglaw. I don't think the numbers are low because all these W&L grads are turning down market paying offers at biglaw firms.
3. Here is the thing: the majority of W&L grads aren't getting jobs in other areas either.

Tigerrr
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby Tigerrr » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:48 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.


anyone agree with this?

No.

A biglaw job is generally a MUCH better outcome than a state court clerkship. Unlike in the case of most federal clerkships, large firms will NOT keep offers open for state court clerks, and biglaw firms do not actively seek to hire state court clerks. Furthermore, one generally needs lower grades to snag a state clerkship than a biglaw jerb. Furthermore, W&L sends few people to the MUCH more desirable federal clerkships. Because, as mentioned above, exit options to firms from state clerkships will likely be of the small firm variety, there is little reason to choose a state clerkship over a biglaw job because the biglaw job will provide a higher degree of permanence than a temporary clerkship, more money, and a more diverse array of exit options (due to prestige and training on large, sophisticated matters) to other large firms, boutiques, smaller firms, in-house positions with large corporations, PI, and govt. Most importantly, big money is better to pay off big debt. Small firm pay scales can't match that (think starting at $50kish).

As someone who went through OCI, I can say that almost everyone at my school participated. In addition to the reasons I said above about large firms opening doors, big firms hire before you pass the bar. Many small firms/PI/govt. will not. Also you can't really trade up to a large firm from smaller firms; the model is based on 2L hiring. I'd estimate that something like 85% of my classmates participated in OCI.

Just because they look at people from the top third doesn't mean that firm will hire people who are merely top third people as a matter of course.



Thank you..that was a good point...I wasnt consdering it from that viewpoint


And MrAnon... I certaintly do no have an agenda for W&..I just happen to know a few alums in Biglaw that have talked to me about the school and got me interested in it...i certainly did not intend to argue in favor of W&L for biglaw as history has dictated otherwise...however I did want to view from all possible angles because I have learned that raw numbers do not always paint a full picture all the time..so I just wanted to get peoples opinons and different sources

I thank all of you who have commened so far

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sunynp
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby sunynp » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:53 pm

Also, be very careful in talking to alumni. They may have graduated before the current economic crash affecting law. Or even if they are recent grads, they may have family or other connections that are helping them get jobs. Finally, I have found that once people start working they tend to forget that they only got the job in the first place because of their grades. They minimize how important grades are in getting a job because grades only get you the interview. They had to land the job with interviewing skill, personality, recommendations ,etc. Outside of school no one compares GPAs once you all end up at the same firm. You are all getting paid the same.

I would trust this forum in regards to the current market much more than I would trust any alum. As you can see from the stats, a large percentage of the class is unemployed or employed by the school, the alums aren't getting those people jobs.

rad lulz
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:14 pm

sunynp wrote:Also, be very careful in talking to alumni. They may have graduated before the current economic crash affecting law. Or even if they are recent grads, they may have family or other connections that are helping them get jobs. Finally, I have found that once people start working they tend to forget that they only got the job in the first place because of their grades. They minimize how important grades are in getting a job because grades only get you the interview. They had to land the job with interviewing skill, personality, recommendations ,etc. Outside of school no one compares GPAs once you all end up at the same firm. You are all getting paid the same.

I would trust this forum in regards to the current market much more than I would trust any alum. As you can see from the stats, a large percentage of the class is unemployed or employed by the school, the alums aren't getting those people jobs.

This. Unless the alumnus graduated in 2011 or 2012 they generally don't know what's going on.

jarofsoup
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby jarofsoup » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:16 pm

rad lulz wrote:
sunynp wrote:Also, be very careful in talking to alumni. They may have graduated before the current economic crash affecting law. Or even if they are recent grads, they may have family or other connections that are helping them get jobs. Finally, I have found that once people start working they tend to forget that they only got the job in the first place because of their grades. They minimize how important grades are in getting a job because grades only get you the interview. They had to land the job with interviewing skill, personality, recommendations ,etc. Outside of school no one compares GPAs once you all end up at the same firm. You are all getting paid the same.

I would trust this forum in regards to the current market much more than I would trust any alum. As you can see from the stats, a large percentage of the class is unemployed or employed by the school, the alums aren't getting those people jobs.

This. Unless the alumnus graduated in 2011 or 2012 they generally don't know what's going on.



I don't know if this is always true. I talked to a alumni who acted like the school was falling. Totally freaked out by layoffs and crap. One of the many reasons I transferred law schools...

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:47 pm

PMed you OP

Tigerrr
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby Tigerrr » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:25 pm

Thank you to all who commented..you all gave me some interesting things to think about

timbs4339
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:35 pm

Tigerrr wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Tigerrr wrote:
theintern wrote:You're assuming that the entire class is applying for biglaw positions AND that biglaw is only recruiting from the top of the class, no exceptions. This is a terrible statistic, especially when employed to pass judgment on schools located in regions where these firms are few and far between.


following up a little on this point a little...someone once told me that these employment stats can sometimes not tell the whole story and it assumes that the entire class is applying for biglaw...where as with a school with like W&L who places reasnable in Clerckships you may have a good chunk of students attending to go into clerking...or a lot of the classes are made up of people from the virginia area who are vying for Virginia and surrounding areas jobs that aren't Biglaw...I personally know a good amount of people going to law school at T-14 and very good regional schools and I would say about 75-80% of them have told me that they dont want to go into Biglaw when they graduate (could they just be saying that and planning to do the opposite...sure) but I take it for what it is..so its possible that only 50% of a certain class even goes after the biglaw jobs in the first place...and I tend to believe in this a little becasue I know a person on the hiring committee of a v40 firm and he told me that their cutoff for W&L is really the top 35% not the 10-15% that certain numbers would suggest.



anyone agree with this?

No, I don't agree. I think you have to take the employment statistics as they are, not how they might be in some other life. I don't for a second believe that a large portion of W&L could get biglaw but are choosing not to do so. Also, 9% of the class is employed by the school.

There may be some Southern firms that go beyond top 10% or 15% at W&L. I don't think many NYC firms will do so.

You would be mistaken to go there expecting biglaw.


The firm I was talking about was D.C.....But why is so hard for you to believe that people that go to law school dont want Biglaw...some are very content with working in a different field of law...(not arguing against your point...just interested in your response)


There was a study done sometime ago among entering minority Harvard 1Ls. Something like 80% of them expressed an interest in public interest or government through their personal statement. When all was said and done, 10% of them went into PI. IME, the same behavior applies to the student body overall. At my T-14, 90% of the class did OCI.

0Ls who tell you they want to do PI are usually a combination of 1) being PC, 2) unsure exactly what they want to do and will take the first job that comes along, which is biglaw, 3) legitimately interested in PI fields for which there are no jobs for entry-levels. Also, very few 0Ls are exposed to corporate law during college, but many have taken some constitutional or international law courses in college or encountered it in some aspect, so that is what they naturally say.

PolySuyGuy
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Re: W&L on the rise???

Postby PolySuyGuy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:09 pm

Tigerrr wrote:Long time lurker first time poster

ITE is W&L still a decent choice...does it give one a relatively decent change at landing biglaw...(not talking in relation to t-14..but more so to its peers) I have heard it has decent reach to DC



Is W&L decreasing their class size?




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