NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

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NYU or Duke for BIGLAW?

NYU @ Sticker
31
35%
Duke @ $70K
57
64%
Retake.
1
1%
 
Total votes: 89

kaiser
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby kaiser » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:48 pm

Without considering money, I think NYU makes biglaw easier. But 100K is a ton of money and Duke will still give you a very good chance at biglaw. Im an NYU student, but in your shoes, id go for the $$

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Killingly
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Killingly » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:50 pm

Duke :lol:

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:51 pm

Killingly wrote:Duke :lol:


your mustache is endearing.

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Killingly
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Killingly » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:54 pm

PaulKriske wrote:
Killingly wrote:Duke :lol:


your mustache is endearing.


I think it makes me seem distinguished.

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thelawyler
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby thelawyler » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:57 pm

I chose NYU over Michigan in a similar situation, but I do have a strong affinity to New York City. I'd say you can't go wrong either way.

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:57 pm

thelawyler wrote:I chose NYU over Michigan in a similar situation, but I do have a strong affinity to New York City. I'd say you can't go wrong either way.


well, tbf, NYU over michigan is a no-brainer.

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:58 pm

Killingly wrote:
PaulKriske wrote:
Killingly wrote:Duke :lol:


your mustache is endearing.


I think it makes me seem distinguished.


where are you going again?

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rickgrimes69
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:01 pm

NYU is not worth $100k more. Nope.

(Also a Duke student FWIW).

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Killingly
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Killingly » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:05 pm

PaulKriske wrote:
Killingly wrote:
PaulKriske wrote:
Killingly wrote:Duke :lol:


your mustache is endearing.


I think it makes me seem distinguished.


where are you going again?


Michigan

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beachbum
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby beachbum » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:10 pm

Dude. We're talking about $100 grand. That's a TON of money.

NYU is a better school, at least for NYC. But $100k better?

The NYU dude's analysis is too simplistic. True, if you miss the biglaw boat from either school, you're gonna be facing an uphill battle. But from NYU, not only are you forced into biglaw, but you're forced to stay in biglaw longer than you would from Duke.

So at NYU, you can get fucked two ways: (1) missing biglaw, or (2) getting punted from biglaw too soon. NYU makes it less likely that you'll miss biglaw (at least in NYC), but more likely that you'll get kicked to the curb before you pay off your loans.

I dunno, I just think $100k is way, way too much to pay for a marginal increase in job prospects. If we were talking Duke v. Yale, this would be a different discussion. But Duke v. NYU? Seems like a pretty easy decision.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU vs. Duke

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:14 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?


The disparity is not 75% to 40%. If it is, I would like to see anything that says that because I have never seen the data. The difference is not that great.

Just saw that you edited this.

http://www.law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata
and
http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

I kind of think that you misread my comment about location %s for firm placement. Not sure though, but the huge disparity in the location of where these graduates work shouldn't really be surprising.

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:17 pm

beachbum wrote:Dude. We're talking about $100 grand. That's a TON of money.

NYU is a better school, at least for NYC. But $100k better?

The NYU dude's analysis is too simplistic. True, if you miss the biglaw boat from either school, you're gonna be facing an uphill battle. But from NYU, not only are you forced into biglaw, but you're forced to stay in biglaw longer than you would from Duke.

So at NYU, you can get fucked two ways: (1) missing biglaw, or (2) getting punted from biglaw too soon. NYU makes it less likely that you'll miss biglaw (at least in NYC), but more likely that you'll get kicked to the curb before you pay off your loans.

I dunno, I just think $100k is way, way too much to pay for a marginal increase in job prospects. If we were talking Duke v. Yale, this would be a different discussion. But Duke v. NYU? Seems like a pretty easy decision.



Yeah, but my life goal has been biglaw. Im willing to bet on not washing out.

Paul Campos
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Paul Campos » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:22 pm

Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%

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TUP
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby TUP » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Similar situation last year and didn't give NYU a second thought when they wouldn't negotiate. NYU at sticker is fucking insane, especially when you have Duke on the table at $100k less.

If you want employment stats, check here: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

NYU up 9% in 2010 and Duke up 3% in 2011 per their own reported numbers. The real difference is probably somewhere in between, and will fluctuate year to year.

As a consideration, however, note that more Duke students are likely interested in smaller markets with smaller firms. Further, Duke having a third or less self-select into NYC, the easiest market, while NYU has upwards of three-quarters self-select into the same market should lead to NYU placing better. The fact that it doesn't every year is telling.

Finally, even with a big law paycheck, paying down the $100k is at least 2 and probably 3 years of NYC big law, which is a time period many big lawyers don't even make before moving on to lower paying jobs.

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%


Danke senor campos.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:35 pm

TUP wrote:Similar situation last year and didn't give NYU a second thought when they wouldn't negotiate. NYU at sticker is fucking insane, especially when you have Duke on the table at $100k less.

If you want employment stats, check here: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

NYU up 9% in 2010 and Duke up 3% in 2011 per their own reported numbers. The real difference is probably somewhere in between, and will fluctuate year to year.

As a consideration, however, note that more Duke students are likely interested in smaller markets with smaller firms. Further, Duke having a third or less self-select into NYC, the easiest market, while NYU has upwards of three-quarters self-select into the same market should lead to NYU placing better. The fact that it doesn't every year is telling.

Finally, even with a big law paycheck, paying down the $100k is at least 2 and probably 3 years of NYC big law, which is a time period many big lawyers don't even make before moving on to lower paying jobs.

The problem with your analysis is that during ITE Duke's NYC numbers dropped by 33% from Class of 2008 to 2010. That actually makes it seem like the opposite of your conclusion is actually true. That smaller firms that Duke students have been going to have weathered ITE the best and have been easier to get. This makes sense since NYU places more into really big firms than Duke and those were impacted more substantially (something like 95% pre ITE in 100+ firms compared to like 85% or something like that).

Also, Idk why I'm still posting in this troll's thread.

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beachbum
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby beachbum » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:37 pm

PaulKriske wrote:
beachbum wrote:Dude. We're talking about $100 grand. That's a TON of money.

NYU is a better school, at least for NYC. But $100k better?

The NYU dude's analysis is too simplistic. True, if you miss the biglaw boat from either school, you're gonna be facing an uphill battle. But from NYU, not only are you forced into biglaw, but you're forced to stay in biglaw longer than you would from Duke.

So at NYU, you can get fucked two ways: (1) missing biglaw, or (2) getting punted from biglaw too soon. NYU makes it less likely that you'll miss biglaw (at least in NYC), but more likely that you'll get kicked to the curb before you pay off your loans.

I dunno, I just think $100k is way, way too much to pay for a marginal increase in job prospects. If we were talking Duke v. Yale, this would be a different discussion. But Duke v. NYU? Seems like a pretty easy decision.



Yeah, but my life goal has been biglaw. Im willing to bet on not washing out.


That's fine, but you also have to be realistic. Most associates don't last over 3 years in biglaw. To make partner at a major market firm, you're gonna have to bill 2500+ hours. And you're going to have to do this while making substantial monthly loan payments.

I don't know what your work history is like, but unless you have substantial experience in a demanding career, you can't really know how you'll react to biglaw until you're actually doing it. To bet on 5+ years in major market biglaw is risky.

I mean, if you're betting on your ability to stick in biglaw, you might as well bet on your ability to finish above median at Duke.

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PaulKriske
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby PaulKriske » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:43 pm

beachbum wrote:That's fine, but you also have to be realistic. Most associates don't last over 3 years in biglaw. To make partner at a major market firm, you're gonna have to bill 2500+ hours. And you're going to have to do this while making substantial monthly loan payments.

I don't know what your work history is like, but unless you have substantial experience in a demanding career, you can't really know how you'll react to biglaw until you're actually doing it. To bet on 5+ years in major market biglaw is risky.

I mean, if you're betting on your ability to stick in biglaw, you might as well bet on your ability to finish above median at Duke.


I would bet on that. My worry is that duke may preclude me from the upper echelon firms for one orlast more ofbuy any of its appreciable differences from nyu.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Gecko of Doom » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:09 pm

I go to neither Duke nor NYU. Voted for Duke.

Think about whether you would seriously want to pay an extra ~$100,000 for a few percent increase in biglaw placement. If you would, that's fine. I don't think I would.

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sunynp
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby sunynp » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Gecko of Doom wrote:I go to neither Duke nor NYU. Voted for Duke.

Think about whether you would seriously want to pay an extra ~$100,000 for a few percent increase in biglaw placement. If you would, that's fine. I don't think I would.


OP: have you ever worked in a biglaw firm? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Biglaw is a tough job, it eats most people up and most people can't take more than a few years. You shouldn't assume you will last longer than most people. If you have worked as a biglaw paralegal for a couple of years, I might be willing to think you have a clue. Right now, I'm not sure you understand a single aspect of biglaw other than the paycheck.

You are going to build your whole financial future on the chance for a job that you might not get and if you do get it, you might not keep.

You would be making a huge mistake to pay $100,000 more to go to NYU.

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TUP
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby TUP » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:42 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
TUP wrote:Similar situation last year and didn't give NYU a second thought when they wouldn't negotiate. NYU at sticker is fucking insane, especially when you have Duke on the table at $100k less.

If you want employment stats, check here: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

NYU up 9% in 2010 and Duke up 3% in 2011 per their own reported numbers. The real difference is probably somewhere in between, and will fluctuate year to year.

As a consideration, however, note that more Duke students are likely interested in smaller markets with smaller firms. Further, Duke having a third or less self-select into NYC, the easiest market, while NYU has upwards of three-quarters self-select into the same market should lead to NYU placing better. The fact that it doesn't every year is telling.

Finally, even with a big law paycheck, paying down the $100k is at least 2 and probably 3 years of NYC big law, which is a time period many big lawyers don't even make before moving on to lower paying jobs.

The problem with your analysis is that during ITE Duke's NYC numbers dropped by 33% from Class of 2008 to 2010. That actually makes it seem like the opposite of your conclusion is actually true. That smaller firms that Duke students have been going to have weathered ITE the best and have been easier to get. This makes sense since NYU places more into really big firms than Duke and those were impacted more substantially (something like 95% pre ITE in 100+ firms compared to like 85% or something like that).

Also, Idk why I'm still posting in this troll's thread.


Pretty sure NYC is 20% +/- 5% year to year, but where are you getting your 33% drop? A small class size will obviously have more variance as students self-select into different markets.

This one seems pretty obvious, so I'm sure the poll will get it right.

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Yeshia90
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby Yeshia90 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:46 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%


I don't need to say how misleading this is, considering that the ~20% of NYUers who go into public interest aren't forced there because they couldn't get a biglaw job.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:56 pm

TUP wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
TUP wrote:Similar situation last year and didn't give NYU a second thought when they wouldn't negotiate. NYU at sticker is fucking insane, especially when you have Duke on the table at $100k less.

If you want employment stats, check here: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

NYU up 9% in 2010 and Duke up 3% in 2011 per their own reported numbers. The real difference is probably somewhere in between, and will fluctuate year to year.

As a consideration, however, note that more Duke students are likely interested in smaller markets with smaller firms. Further, Duke having a third or less self-select into NYC, the easiest market, while NYU has upwards of three-quarters self-select into the same market should lead to NYU placing better. The fact that it doesn't every year is telling.

Finally, even with a big law paycheck, paying down the $100k is at least 2 and probably 3 years of NYC big law, which is a time period many big lawyers don't even make before moving on to lower paying jobs.

The problem with your analysis is that during ITE Duke's NYC numbers dropped by 33% from Class of 2008 to 2010. That actually makes it seem like the opposite of your conclusion is actually true. That smaller firms that Duke students have been going to have weathered ITE the best and have been easier to get. This makes sense since NYU places more into really big firms than Duke and those were impacted more substantially (something like 95% pre ITE in 100+ firms compared to like 85% or something like that).

Also, Idk why I'm still posting in this troll's thread.


Pretty sure NYC is 20% +/- 5% year to year, but where are you getting your 33% drop? A small class size will obviously have more variance as students self-select into different markets.

This one seems pretty obvious, so I'm sure the poll will get it right.

You could look at the links that I posted. But it went from 25% to 18%. Meanwhile the North Carolina % increased over the same time period. While this obviously could be self selection it still calls into question your conclusions.

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sunynp
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby sunynp » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:00 pm

Yeshia90 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%


I don't need to say how misleading this is, considering that the ~20% of NYUers who go into public interest aren't forced there because they couldn't get a biglaw job.


How do you know this? Genuine question because my thought is that Biglaw isn't interested in students whose resume screams public interest. My understanding is that the split starts early between the two: PI won't hire unless you have a strong PI resume; biglaw isn't going to hire a person who has been preparing for PI. Can you really say that those PI people would have gotten biglaw? And if they did get biglaw, who would they have replaced? Would firms have hired more NYU grads or would they be replacing other NYU students (most firms have some sort of maximum they will hire from a single school)? So who would those 20% be kicking out of biglaw jobs? There is a definite cap on the total of biglaw jobs.

I think that PI is just as selective as biglaw but they are focusing on other things. I'm certain that people can't just default into PI because they don't get biglaw. I agree with you, these people are choosing PI, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could have been hired into biglaw if they had changed their mind about PI.
Last edited by sunynp on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW

Postby lawyerwannabe » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:16 pm

No one knows how many top Duke students self-select into NC. No one knows how many NYU students self-select into PI. Everything is speculation.

What this would come down to for me is that being $250k in debt when BigLaw is not guaranteed is terrifying. It's crushing. And then, even if you get BigLaw, you are probably not going to last long enough to pay back your debt.

In the end, to each their own. But Duke provides a better balance of debt and BigLaw prospects in this situation.




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