NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW Forum

[Yeshia90]

No one knows how many top Duke students self-select into NC. No one knows how many NYU students self-select into PI. Everything is speculation.

What this would come down to for me is that being $250k in debt when BigLaw is not guaranteed is terrifying. It's crushing. And then, even if you get BigLaw, you are probably not going to last long enough to pay back your debt.

In the end, to each their own. But Duke provides a better balance of debt and BigLaw prospects in this situation.

I mean, it's not like $150,000 of debt gives you options that aren't biglaw, either.

Yeah, it's easier to hit it and quit it and get out in three or four years. But it's just as much biglaw or bust.

Frankly, this is a toss-up. The answer might well be Duke, but that's depending on your preferences rather than any significant differences between how qualified you'll be to pay off your debt after graduating from either NYU or Duke.

[NedStark12]

I go to neither Duke nor NYU. Voted for Duke.

Think about whether you would seriously want to pay an extra ~$100,000 for a few percent increase in biglaw placement. If you would, that's fine. I don't think I would.

OP: have you ever worked in a biglaw firm? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Biglaw is a tough job, it eats most people up and most people can't take more than a few years. You shouldn't assume you will last longer than most people. If you have worked as a biglaw paralegal for a couple of years, I might be willing to think you have a clue. Right now, I'm not sure you understand a single aspect of biglaw other than the paycheck.

You are going to build your whole financial future on the chance for a job that you might not get and if you do get it, you might not keep.

You would be making a huge mistake to pay $100,000 more to go to NYU.

WOW...Game, set, match.

Well said.

[Paul Campos]

I wonder how many of the 57 NYU 2011 grads who were working in law school funded jobs nine months after graduation were categorized as employed in public interest positions?

That's one form of "self selection" I guess.

[birdlaw117]

Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%

I don't need to say how misleading this is, considering that the ~20% of NYUers who go into public interest aren't forced there because they couldn't get a biglaw job.

How do you know this? Genuine question because my thought is that Biglaw isn't interested in students whose resume screams public interest. My understanding is that the split starts early between the two: PI won't hire unless you have a strong PI resume; biglaw isn't going to hire a person who has been preparing for PI. Can you really say that those PI people would have gotten biglaw? And if they did get biglaw, who would they have replaced? Would firms have hired more NYU grads or would they be replacing other NYU students (most firms have some sort of maximum they will hire from a single school)? So who would those 20% be kicking out of biglaw jobs? There is a definite cap on the total of biglaw jobs.

I think that PI is just as selective as biglaw but they are focusing on other things. I'm certain that people can't just default into PI because they don't get biglaw. I agree with you, these people are choosing PI, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could have been hired into biglaw if they had changed their mind about PI.

While this may be true (I'm skeptical because a huge portion of people at all top schools have PI-ish backgrounds and do just fine at getting firm jobs, not to mention the big law business expects there to be high attrition rates), but even then you would have to conclude that NYU then has more students that have self-selected into NYU in the first place. Either way, it's a self-selection bias that makes that particular data not very useful.



Campos: maybe you should read the rebuttal I linked earlier in the thread that was directed at your inability to comprehend statistics.


Oh, and you all act like post-big law jobs will be impossible to pay down debt with. That's a silly, baseless assumption.

[Paul Campos]

Class of 2011

101+ firms plus federal clerkships

Duke: 56%

NYU: 54%

I don't need to say how misleading this is, considering that the ~20% of NYUers who go into public interest aren't forced there because they couldn't get a biglaw job.

How do you know this? Genuine question because my thought is that Biglaw isn't interested in students whose resume screams public interest. My understanding is that the split starts early between the two: PI won't hire unless you have a strong PI resume; biglaw isn't going to hire a person who has been preparing for PI. Can you really say that those PI people would have gotten biglaw? And if they did get biglaw, who would they have replaced? Would firms have hired more NYU grads or would they be replacing other NYU students (most firms have some sort of maximum they will hire from a single school)? So who would those 20% be kicking out of biglaw jobs? There is a definite cap on the total of biglaw jobs.

I think that PI is just as selective as biglaw but they are focusing on other things. I'm certain that people can't just default into PI because they don't get biglaw. I agree with you, these people are choosing PI, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could have been hired into biglaw if they had changed their mind about PI.

While this may be true (I'm skeptical because a huge portion of people at all top schools have PI-ish backgrounds and do just fine at getting firm jobs, not to mention the big law business expects there to be high attrition rates), but even then you would have to conclude that NYU then has more students that have self-selected into NYU in the first place. Either way, it's a self-selection bias that makes that particular data not very useful.



Campos: maybe you should read the rebuttal I linked earlier in the thread that was directed at your inability to comprehend statistics.


Oh, and you all act like post-big law jobs will be impossible to pay down debt with. That's a silly, baseless assumption.

Good luck at NYU.

[birdlaw117]

Good luck at NYU.

Thanks. Good luck with your crusade.

[PaulKriske]

'tis a lot to think about.

[ahnhub]

I voted for Duke. You have Retake as an option in the poll. Why? What are your numbers, and do you think you underperformed?

[PaulKriske]

I voted for Duke. You have Retake as an option in the poll. Why? What are your numbers, and do you think you underperformed?

i for sure underperformed. sadly. but i threw that in there to stave off those inevitable responses.

shit is what it is. my gpa is the real issue.

[rayiner]

And the relatively small increase in placement power is understating things. When the median student at Duke is fighting for any big law job and the median student at NYU is fighting to get a V10, maybe V20 job, I think that's telling.

First, half of the jobs in NYC are in the V10, so even if this were true (it's not), it doesn't prove as much as you think it does.

Second, NYU's "rebuttal" was a huge overstatement of the actual disparity. For the C/O 2011 data, the NLJ understates NYU's big firm placement by all of 3%.

Third, public interest doesn't account for the huge disparity that you seem to imply. Look at un/un-employment (defined as in: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=181723), which counts both big law and public interest as a positive outcome:



NYU does a little better, but not by much.

[sunynp]

And the relatively small increase in placement power is understating things. When the median student at Duke is fighting for any big law job and the median student at NYU is fighting to get a V10, maybe V20 job, I think that's telling.

LOL no.

Can you explain it to them in a less concise way? They don't seem to get it.

[rayiner]

If you look at the un-employment statistics, NYU doesn't perform at the same level as Columbia/Penn. I'm inclined to believe that it could, if those PI people were targeting big law instead of public interest. The PI job market is so ferociously competitive now, I'd imagine a bunch of the huge number of NYU graduates in school-funded jobs could have gotten big law had they been so inclined. But the available data doesn't really allow for making strong statements of the sort birdlaw has been making.

I personally might pay $70k more for NYU than Duke, but I'd be making a leap of faith that the available data is a misleading characterization of NYU's placement due to its particularities.

[birdlaw117]

If you look at the un-employment statistics, NYU doesn't perform at the same level as Columbia/Penn. I'm inclined to believe that it could, if those PI people were targeting big law instead of public interest. The PI job market is so ferociously competitive now, I'd imagine a bunch of the huge number of NYU graduates in school-funded jobs could have gotten big law had they been so inclined. But the available data doesn't really allow for making strong statements of the sort birdlaw has been making.

I personally might pay $70k more for NYU than Duke, but I'd be making a leap of faith that the available data is a misleading characterization of NYU's placement due to its particularities.

Just so you know, the advice was given as an NYC-centric approach, since that seemed to be the most rational approach. Which changes things. This is also why I made the point that NYU puts 75% of its students into the markets OP mentioned while Duke puts 40%. Even then, I don't think the same advice holds if OP wanted DC more than NYC.

And the post of mine that you quoted about the V10/V20, etc. "I think that's telling" was just being snarky from the post before it.

Regarding PI, I think it has to be assumed that the 18% number by NYU is because for many students it was a fallback option. That's twice the rate of some pre-ITE years, so it can't be purely self-selection. But it's still a substantial issue that creates issues with analyzing data.

[TUP]

Pretty sure NYC is 20% +/- 5% year to year, but where are you getting your 33% drop? A small class size will obviously have more variance as students self-select into different markets.

This one seems pretty obvious, so I'm sure the poll will get it right.

You could look at the links that I posted. But it went from 25% to 18%. Meanwhile the North Carolina % increased over the same time period. While this obviously could be self selection it still calls into question your conclusions.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that would take Raleigh or Charlotte big law, so I don't think that's a bad thing when the big law % is stable.

[birdlaw117]

Pretty sure NYC is 20% +/- 5% year to year, but where are you getting your 33% drop? A small class size will obviously have more variance as students self-select into different markets.

This one seems pretty obvious, so I'm sure the poll will get it right.

You could look at the links that I posted. But it went from 25% to 18%. Meanwhile the North Carolina % increased over the same time period. While this obviously could be self selection it still calls into question your conclusions.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that would take Raleigh or Charlotte big law, so I don't think that's a bad thing when the big law % is stable.

That's not what I meant. I was just saying that the % changes during ITE don't suggest that it's easier for a Duke student to get a job in NYC than in NC or somewhere else like that. That's all I was saying. Trust me, if I was a student at Duke I would probably prefer a job in one of those cities than in NYC too.

Keep in mind, the data set is incredibly limited, very susceptible to self-selection, and probably even more susceptible to more complex economic issues. So it isn't like the evidence is strong. I was just merely showing that the only data points in the other direction to your claims. But it's far from conclusive.

[rayiner]

Just so you know, the advice was given as an NYC-centric approach, since that seemed to be the most rational approach. Which changes things. This is also why I made the point that NYU puts 75% of its students into the markets OP mentioned while Duke puts 40%. Even then, I don't think the same advice holds if OP wanted DC more than NYC.

This is a very obtuse argument. OP just wants big law. You're acknowledging that, but then using placement into NYC as a proxy for overall big law placement, on the premise that NYC is the best market to target for big law. Why engage in this round-about argument when we have actual figures detailing placement into large firms?

Regarding PI, I think it has to be assumed that the 18% number by NYU is because for many students it was a fallback option. That's twice the rate of some pre-ITE years, so it can't be purely self-selection. But it's still a substantial issue that creates issues with analyzing data.

Real PI jobs aren't a fall-back. The 18% counts both real PI jobs, and the school-funded fake PI jobs. The chart I posted isn't sensitive to this issue, though. It adds up the categories that aren't desirable (unemployment, temporary jobs, etc) instead of trying to make the harder judgment about what categories are desirable. Nobody is self-selecting into school-funded jobs. On this measure, NYU really doesn't perform appreciably better than Duke.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If you look at the un-employment statistics, NYU doesn't perform at the same level as Columbia/Penn. I'm inclined to believe that it could, if those PI people were targeting big law instead of public interest. The PI job market is so ferociously competitive now, I'd imagine a bunch of the huge number of NYU graduates in school-funded jobs could have gotten big law had they been so inclined.

Based on purely anecdotal evidence, I think this is accurate. The number of people at NYU just totally self-selecting out of biglaw -- who simply never want to work for a firm and would rather do a school-funded nine-month fellowship than do EIW -- is really quite large, and I have to think it's substantially larger than anywhere other than YSH and Berkeley. Anyway, I'd probably go to Duke given these numbers, but I think people are being a little facile by just focusing on the money disparity, because I think 1) there is a placement difference, 2) either amount of debt is independently enormous, and 3) NYU will give you better options at top firms.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Nobody is self-selecting into school-funded jobs.

Except, as you mentioned above, many "PI or bust" students are effectively self-selecting into school-funded jobs, given the job market.

[birdlaw117]

Just so you know, the advice was given as an NYC-centric approach, since that seemed to be the most rational approach. Which changes things. This is also why I made the point that NYU puts 75% of its students into the markets OP mentioned while Duke puts 40%. Even then, I don't think the same advice holds if OP wanted DC more than NYC.

This is a very obtuse argument. OP just wants big law. You're acknowledging that, but then using placement into NYC as a proxy for overall big law placement, on the premise that NYC is the best market to target for big law. Why engage in this round-about argument when we have actual figures detailing placement into large firms?

By "rational approach" I meant that someone who merely wanted the best chance at any big law in any big city would likely predominately target NYC firms. I wasn't saying it is a rational approach to consider NYC to be a proxy for all big law everywhere. I can see how my wording could be confusing/misleading.

Regarding PI, I think it has to be assumed that the 18% number by NYU is because for many students it was a fallback option. That's twice the rate of some pre-ITE years, so it can't be purely self-selection. But it's still a substantial issue that creates issues with analyzing data.

Real PI jobs aren't a fall-back. The 18% counts both real PI jobs, and the school-funded fake PI jobs. The chart I posted isn't sensitive to this issue, though. It adds up the categories that aren't desirable (unemployment, temporary jobs, etc) instead of trying to make the harder judgment about what categories are desirable. Nobody is self-selecting into school-funded jobs. On this measure, NYU really doesn't perform appreciably better than Duke.

Yeah, that was my point. I was conceding that the 18% was higher than it would be anyway and it would be silly to think otherwise. Also, I'm not so sure that all school-funded jobs are undesirable. If fellowships like these are counted, then I would certainly disagree: http://www.law.nyu.edu/publicinterestla ... /index.htm. I don't know if those qualify as school-funded or not. Regardless I don't think we disagree about this.

[TUP]

Pretty sure NYC is 20% +/- 5% year to year, but where are you getting your 33% drop? A small class size will obviously have more variance as students self-select into different markets.

This one seems pretty obvious, so I'm sure the poll will get it right.

You could look at the links that I posted. But it went from 25% to 18%. Meanwhile the North Carolina % increased over the same time period. While this obviously could be self selection it still calls into question your conclusions.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that would take Raleigh or Charlotte big law, so I don't think that's a bad thing when the big law % is stable.

That's not what I meant. I was just saying that the % changes during ITE don't suggest that it's easier for a Duke student to get a job in NYC than in NC or somewhere else like that. That's all I was saying. Trust me, if I was a student at Duke I would probably prefer a job in one of those cities than in NYC too.

Keep in mind, the data set is incredibly limited, very susceptible to self-selection, and probably even more susceptible to more complex economic issues. So it isn't like the evidence is strong. I was just merely showing that the only data points in the other direction to your claims. But it's far from conclusive.

It just seems more like self-selection and a small class size to me. Those overall 100+ attorney plus fed clerkships numbers are the best to follow for someone that cares about big law IMO. Going deeper than that into a small class causes comparisons of very small samples, which leads to more variance.

I just think the HYS, CCN, MVP, etc. tiers based on admittance get misinterpreted as being based on employment numbers too easily on this forum, but some people will never be convinced otherwise.

[Real Madrid]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

more or less, NYC. but, truth be told, idgaf.

so you would argue for NYU at sticker? or would you need a little cash to smooth things over?

Definitely try and negotiate for more $$ if you can. But NYU is still a good investment at sticker and it gives you the best chance to reach your goals. Duke is also a good investment but gives you a lower chance to reach your goals.

You should also note that it's two Duke students telling you it's a bad idea to not take the money. A lot of it comes down to risk aversion, but the risk is actually less likely to fall in at NYU.

Here's the thing, $100k of debt from Duke will fuck you over just like $200k of debt from NYU will if you don't get big law. But NYU has better safety nets in their superior LRAP program and better job prospects.

And the relatively small increase in placement power is understating things. When the median student at Duke is fighting for any big law job and the median student at NYU is fighting to get a V10, maybe V20 job, I think that's telling.

Weren't you blasting me for being a Berkeley troll a few weeks ago? Because this is some SERIOUS NYU trolling right here.

OP, Duke is the correct choice here. It is a better school for clerking and is arguably not that far behind NYU at all when it comes to big law.

[rayiner]

I just think the HYS, CCN, MVP, etc. tiers based on admittance get misinterpreted as being based on employment numbers too easily on this forum, but some people will never be convinced otherwise.

Most salient thing in this thread. TLS-ers love rankings so much, they fail to consider what they measure.

[birdlaw117]

I just think the HYS, CCN, MVP, etc. tiers based on admittance get misinterpreted as being based on employment numbers too easily on this forum, but some people will never be convinced otherwise.

Most salient thing in this thread. TLS-ers love rankings so much, they fail to consider what they measure.

Not only that, but NYU's admittance data doesn't suggest it belongs with CC instead of at least P. At least I haven't seen anything that suggests that. I'm pretty sure NYU is one of the least selective in the top 10/14 based purely on acceptance rate, not sure on specifics though. Obviously acceptance rate isn't the only measure, and NYU excels in the median games.

[PaulKriske]

this decision blows.

[somewhatwayward]

How do you know this? Genuine question because my thought is that Biglaw isn't interested in students whose resume screams public interest. My understanding is that the split starts early between the two: PI won't hire unless you have a strong PI resume; biglaw isn't going to hire a person who has been preparing for PI. Can you really say that those PI people would have gotten biglaw? And if they did get biglaw, who would they have replaced? Would firms have hired more NYU grads or would they be replacing other NYU students (most firms have some sort of maximum they will hire from a single school)? So who would those 20% be kicking out of biglaw jobs? There is a definite cap on the total of biglaw jobs.

I think that PI is just as selective as biglaw but they are focusing on other things. I'm certain that people can't just default into PI because they don't get biglaw. I agree with you, these people are choosing PI, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could have been hired into biglaw if they had changed their mind about PI.

PI jobs do look for a commitment to PI, but biglaw firms could care less about whether you have a PI resume as long as you have the grades and the school. they understand that in this economy it is hard to get private sector work, especially for 1L summer. I bet a significant portion of people who go into PI at NYU could have gotten a firm job with their PI-laden resume, no problem.