Michigan State U (MSU Law) or SUNY Buffalo Law School? Forum

[taxnstuff]

They have 2 of the best ranked programs in the country. Some of the liberal arts programs at Syracuse are on par with HYS and Cornell, NYU, and Columbia in NewYork

Im sorry but this cant be correct unless you are referring to their basketball and lacrosse programs

[PennBull]

We are not debating about law schools

This is news to me. We were debating what would be better for a potential law student on a law school forum. Pretty sure that means we were debating about law schools.

Your bullshit about what nonlegal programs Syracuse is strong in (or my bullshit about what UB is strong in, which you know nothing about) means nothing to me or to anybody else on this site.

I can't speak to what employers prefer in Western/Central NY

Great; we can officially label your opinion as useless in a discussion about these law schools.

Syracuse is better recognized outside of those areas than UB.

For basketball, maybe. Which doesn't matter when you are trying to get a legal job.

I'm not telling him to attend Syracuse Law; I'm telling him not to attend UB Law.

Why? It's clear you don't know anything about the upstate New York legal market, which are the only markets the schools cater to. And UB is better than Syracuse in those markets.

Getting a job outside of those markets depends on your grades and connections--not bullshit about the schools as a whole like how famous their basketball team is or whatever non-legal program Syracuse is marginally better at.

[jas1503]

They have 2 of the best ranked programs in the country. Some of the liberal arts programs at Syracuse are on par with HYS and Cornell, NYU, and Columbia in NewYork

Im sorry but this cant be correct unless you are referring to their basketball and lacrosse programs

You can joke all you want about their Athletics, but Public Affairs + Library Studies have been ranked #1 in the nation for multiple years. If you're someone who wants an MA to get into a specific Public sector job, then the Maxwell School will be as respect as an IVY MA in the same field. Call people working in these jobs and ask for yourself, if you need an anecdotal.

[jas1503]

We are not debating about law schools

This is news to me. We were debating what would be better for a potential law student on a law school forum. Pretty sure that means we were debating about law schools.

Your bullshit about what nonlegal programs Syracuse is strong in (or my bullshit about what UB is strong in, which you know nothing about) means nothing to me or to anybody else on this site.

I can't speak to what employers prefer in Western/Central NY

Great; we can officially label your opinion as useless in a discussion about these law schools.

Syracuse is better recognized outside of those areas than UB.

For basketball, maybe. Which doesn't matter when you are trying to get a legal job.

I'm not telling him to attend Syracuse Law; I'm telling him not to attend UB Law.

Why? It's clear you don't know anything about the upstate New York legal market, which are the only markets the schools cater to. And UB is better than Syracuse in those markets.

Getting a job outside of those markets depends on your grades and connections--not bullshit about the schools as a whole like how famous their basketball team is or whatever non-legal program Syracuse is marginally better at.

We were talking about UB Law vs MSU Law until you mentioned that UB would be better to attend than Syracuse.

Like you, I got my undergrad from UB, so I know enough about UB to comment on its academic programs. I know Law students whom are currently in Law school at UB and they are not as confident about their future legal careers as you are. If Buffalo is so good, why did you flee the first chance you got?

Four types of people in Buffalo:

1.People who come from financially-comfortable families with strong ties to the community.
2.People who are stuck there.
3.People who are trying hard to get out.
4.Internationals

Syracuse has programs that are vastly better than UB's programs. Check the stats. UBull pride shouldn't blind you enough to tell a stranger on an internet forum to make a "TURRIBLE" choice.

OP, don't go to either; however, If you have big money at MSU, then go to MSU.

[BEAST_mode]

Nothing to contribute other than that this Western New Yorker thinks Buffalo is a pretty god damn awesome city. Go Sabres. HTH.

[PennBull]

If you're someone who wants an MA to get into a specific Public sector job, then the Maxwell School will be as respect as an IVY MA in the same field. Call people working in these jobs and ask for yourself, if you need an anecdotal.

My roommate has a Maxwell MA. He's not doing so hot and neither are his friends. But I'm not going to get into an asinine debate about non-law programs. If you gave a shit about UB you would know it has some extremely competitive programs.

We were talking about UB Law vs MSU Law until you mentioned that UB would be better to attend than Syracuse.

For law school, for fucks sake. All i said was that UB is the most respected law school for upstate legal hiring between UB/Syracuse/Albany, and that is absolutely a fact. I'm not debating your other shit.

Like you, I got my undergrad from UB, so I know enough about UB to comment on its academic programs.

Actually, that doesn't automatically qualify you to know anything about legal hiring about western New York, as you've already indicated:

I can't speak to what employers prefer in Western/Central NY

Again, this has nothing to do with what random ass programs are better at different schools. This is about law school and legal hiring. Stop attacking the arguments that I'm not even making.

I know Law students whom are currently in Law school at UB and they are not as confident about their future legal careers as you are. If Buffalo is so good, why did you flee the first chance you got?

Well as long as you keep attacking a gigantic field of strawmen I'll humor you.

I never said UB was a top flight law school and one should choose it over any other school. You're limited to practicing in upstate NY (mostly Buff/Roch), and perhaps you can get down to NYC if you have excellent grades.

Of course I would leave UB to go to Penn. Western New York isn't the most prestigious and exciting legal market. But I'm sure East Lansing and fucking Detroit are better, right?

All I am arguing (and care about), is that I think it is better for OP to go to Buffalo than MSU. And, for purpose of comparison and to support UB, it's sure as shit better than Syracuse Law.

Syracuse has programs that are vastly better than UB's programs. Check the stats. UBull pride shouldn't blind you enough to tell a stranger on an internet forum to make a "TURRIBLE" choice

If this was a website where people debate anything other than law schools and legal hiring, I would not be here. But this is about law school, and UB is better, and you wouldn't know the difference. Go home.

[JD Janitor]

My roommate has a Maxwell MA. He's not doing so hot and neither are his friends. But I'm not going to get into an asinine debate about non-law programs. If you gave a shit about UB you would know it has some extremely competitive programs.

I don't give a shit about Harvard but I know they have some extremely competitive programs.

[PennBull]

My roommate has a Maxwell MA. He's not doing so hot and neither are his friends. But I'm not going to get into an asinine debate about non-law programs. If you gave a shit about UB you would know it has some extremely competitive programs.

I don't give a shit about Harvard but I know they have some extremely competitive programs.

You don't need to give a shit about Harvard to know that. Recognizing an average school's strengths requires that one must give a shit.

[JD Janitor]

My roommate has a Maxwell MA. He's not doing so hot and neither are his friends. But I'm not going to get into an asinine debate about non-law programs. If you gave a shit about UB you would know it has some extremely competitive programs.

I don't give a shit about Harvard but I know they have some extremely competitive programs.

You don't need to give a shit about Harvard to know that. Recognizing an average school's strengths requires that one must give a shit.

Yeah, and recognizing a hooker's inner beauty also requires that you give a shit. But, at the end of the day, shes still a hooker.

[PennBull]

My roommate has a Maxwell MA. He's not doing so hot and neither are his friends. But I'm not going to get into an asinine debate about non-law programs. If you gave a shit about UB you would know it has some extremely competitive programs.

I don't give a shit about Harvard but I know they have some extremely competitive programs.

You don't need to give a shit about Harvard to know that. Recognizing an average school's strengths requires that one must give a shit.

Yeah, and recognizing a hooker's inner beauty also requires that you give a shit. But, at the end of the day, shes still a hooker.

That's an A+ analogy for UB. I'll only argue that UB is a clean hooker for an escort service that is surprisingly reasonably priced. But still a hooker.

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

Listem, I dunno how this conversation got derailed (like all of the others on internet forums, I would imagine), but I go to MSU law and I would like to offer what I know.

Regardless of the prior post about people from MSU telling you they love MSU...I hate MSU because it is law school and law school is terrible. So there's that.

In any event, MSU is currently ranked 82nd. It is a good law school, with Big Ten research-university punch.

The poster who said some drivel about it being the 3rd best law school in the state doesnt live in Michigan, as I have my whole life. That may have been true 10-15 years ago before Wayne State took a nosedive off of a cliff, but it isnt true now. No, it isnt UofM, but it is clearly the #2.

I chose MSU because, unlike Wayne and SUNY and those other TTTs, I felt the MSU name alone would give me more options nationally. The alumni network is pretty expansive. Can SUNY say that?

MSU is fairly easy to get schollys from, too.

But I am NOT an MSU recruiter. Law school sucks sour ass, and MSU is not different.

[JD Janitor]

That's an A+ analogy for UB. I'll only argue that UB is a clean hooker for an escort service that is surprisingly reasonably priced. But still a hooker.

Hooker, escort, UB....whatever. At the end of the day they all leave you fucked and penniless.

[PennBull]

I chose MSU because, unlike Wayne and SUNY and those other TTTs, I felt the MSU name alone would give me more options nationally. The alumni network is pretty expansive. Can SUNY say that?

I completely agree with you. MSU will give you more of a fighting chance outside of the market it aims to. So, if you couldn't stomach the idea of working in Michigan or Buffalo long-term, then you might have a better chance of leaving from MSU.

My only counterpoint is that you should not be considering either school if you are aiming to leave their markets. If your thought process is "I think I would enjoy working in Michigan or Buffalo, but I'd like a better shot at leaving if I could", then maybe MSU can do that. I don't know how good MSU does out of the market.

I know UB dominates the entire city of Buffalo, lots of Rochester, and has a significant presence in NYC. I won't argue that it's difficult to find UB Law grads anywhere else.

But jobs are jobs, and I think UB's placement ability in Buffalo/Rochester makes it a great choice.

[rickgrimes69]

Listem, I dunno how this conversation got derailed (like all of the others on internet forums, I would imagine), but I go to MSU law and I would like to offer what I know.

Regardless of the prior post about people from MSU telling you they love MSU...I hate MSU because it is law school and law school is terrible. So there's that.

In any event, MSU is currently ranked 82nd. It is a good law school, with Big Ten research-university punch.

The poster who said some drivel about it being the 3rd best law school in the state doesnt live in Michigan, as I have my whole life. That may have been true 10-15 years ago before Wayne State took a nosedive off of a cliff, but it isnt true now. No, it isnt UofM, but it is clearly the #2.

Wayne placed 10% more of their class into LT FT legal jobs (50% vs 40%) and has 78% of its grads employed FT vs 71% from MSU. Let's be honest, we're discussing a turd sandwich vs a giant douche here, but one is pretty obviously the better choice.

I chose MSU because, unlike Wayne and SUNY and those other TTTs, I felt the MSU name alone would give me more options nationally. The alumni network is pretty expansive. Can SUNY say that?

OP if you choose MSU for the "national" name recognition you're making a bad decision and should feel bad. MSU won't get you any further outside Michigan than Buff will get you out of upstate NY. This should come down to a decision of where you want to work.

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

OP if you choose MSU for the "national" name recognition you're making a bad decision and should feel bad. MSU won't get you any further outside Michigan than Buff will get you out of upstate NY. This should come down to a decision of where you want to work.

If you plan on debating with snarky reddit memes, youre gonna have a bad time.

Lets play a game. Little Billy Lawgrad goes out to Indiana (or Wisconsin, or freaking East Timor...it doesnt matter) and says "I went to Wayne State University law school in Detroit! Hire me!" Little Kevin Lawgrad says "I went to Michigan State University!" Which one is Mr. Job-giver going to have ever frigging heard of in his life? Right.

And I think it is absurd to suggest that the possibility of having to work in another market someday should not factor into your decision. Thats being irresponsible. Does anyone really think that their life is going to go as planned? If you do, then you are young. Because it doesnt. And when it comes down to a choice of schools, all upsides need to be considered. Name recognition is an upside.

[Grazzhoppa]

OP if you choose MSU for the "national" name recognition you're making a bad decision and should feel bad. MSU won't get you any further outside Michigan than Buff will get you out of upstate NY. This should come down to a decision of where you want to work.

If you plan on debating with snarky reddit memes, youre gonna have a bad time.

Lets play a game. Little Billy Lawgrad goes out to Indiana (or Wisconsin, or freaking East Timor...it doesnt matter) and says "I went to Wayne State University law school in Detroit! Hire me!" Little Kevin Lawgrad says "I went to Michigan State University!" Which one is Mr. Job-giver going to have ever frigging heard of in his life? Right.

Well according to the stats it seems like Mr. Job-giver would hire the Wayne State grad...

You have to remember that these are LEGAL employers that care about LAW school

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

You're talking about a difference in numbers of 7-10 percent. Thats practically the margin of error.

As far as caring about law school...do they? I clerk for a judge and intern for the state government. I have never, in my daily goings-on, encountered a single judge or attorney that gives damn about where you went to law school. My experience tells me that if it isnt Harvard, Yale, etc then you are lumped into a massive group. Thats something I didnt know when I went nuts trying to decide where to go as a 0L.

The questions that came up as I interviewed for summer positions where these: "What does this guy's resume/work experience look like?" and "Who does this guy know?"

You get a JD from a law school that is not ivy league, and you better network. That's the truth.

But seriously, guys and gals, I didnt want this to become a thing. If OP wants to go somewhere other than MSU, more power to him/her. It doesnt matter, in the end. The hustle is all the same, you know.

[rickgrimes69]

You're talking about a difference in numbers of 7-10 percent. Thats practically the margin of error.

Not really, no. I'll let someone who cares more than me do the math but that's a pretty substantial difference.

As far as caring about law school...do they?

I clerk for a judge and intern for the state government. I have never, in my daily goings-on, encountered a single judge or attorney that gives damn about where you went to law school. My experience tells me that if it isnt Harvard, Yale, etc then you are lumped into a massive group.

This is so laughably ridiculous that I actually snorted while reading it. Law is one of the most prestige-whorey professions there is. Edit: The rankings become pretty meaningless after 25 or so, but to pretend there isn't a very real difference between the T14 and your local TTT is stupid.

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

Your substantial, real-law-world experience must be different than mine, then. Im telling you what it is like where I am at. I see people employed everyday that went to triple toilet schools, and no one ever "snorted" at where they went to school. You know who is prestige-whorey? Law professors and federal judges. In the trenches, in prosecutors' offices and the like, everyone is the same. No matter where you went, everyone is fighting for the same 5 bucks.

Snort all you like. Doesn't make it less true.

[taxnstuff]

people that quote like every sentence in separate quotes like to argue way, way too much

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

You're talking about a difference in numbers of 7-10 percent. Thats practically the margin of error.

Not really, no. I'll let someone who cares more than me do the math but that's a pretty substantial difference.

As far as caring about law school...do they?

I clerk for a judge and intern for the state government. I have never, in my daily goings-on, encountered a single judge or attorney that gives damn about where you went to law school. My experience tells me that if it isnt Harvard, Yale, etc then you are lumped into a massive group.

This is so laughably ridiculous that I actually snorted while reading it. Law is one of the most prestige-whorey professions there is. Edit: The rankings become pretty meaningless after 25 or so, but to pretend there isn't a very real difference between the T14 and your local TTT is stupid.

I never pretended that. I said "outside Harvard, Yale, etc." Maybe I focused too heavily on Ivy League...but I meant the creme de la creme. Know who I dont see employed where I am at? U of M(ichigan) folks. Oh wait, yes I do...they're the judges. And thats what I mean. Everyone outside T14 is lumped together and no one cares. It comes down to networking after that.

[rickgrimes69]

You're talking about a difference in numbers of 7-10 percent. Thats practically the margin of error.

Not really, no. I'll let someone who cares more than me do the math but that's a pretty substantial difference.

As far as caring about law school...do they?

I clerk for a judge and intern for the state government. I have never, in my daily goings-on, encountered a single judge or attorney that gives damn about where you went to law school. My experience tells me that if it isnt Harvard, Yale, etc then you are lumped into a massive group.

This is so laughably ridiculous that I actually snorted while reading it. Law is one of the most prestige-whorey professions there is.

Your substantial, real-law-world experience must be different than mine, then. Im telling you what it is like where I am at. I see people employed everyday that went to triple toilet schools, and no one ever "snorted" at where they went to school. You know who is prestige-whorey? Law professors and federal judges. In the trenches, in prosecutors' offices and the like, everyone is the same. No matter where you went, everyone is fighting for the same 5 bucks.

Snort all you like. Doesn't make it less true.

Where you are is probably lacking prestige and therefore employs TTT grads on the reg, which is why nobody cares where you went to school. I've worked in NYC biglaw as a paralegal and I can promise you, attorneys ABSOLUTELY judge you based on where you went to / are going to school. I've talked to partners who have defined GPA floors for each tier. Not to mention there's the whole issue of national name recognition, which as you rightly pointed out is important. Very few schools outside of the T14 have this. Your widespread MSU alumni network means fuckall when trying to obtain a legal job.

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

Well, thats true. I'm probably not blessed with circumstances as prestigious as yours. Which sucks, because I define my self-worth by your opinion of me and my school.

EDIT: You're kind of a big deal.

[JD Janitor]

Well, thats true. I'm probably not blessed with circumstances as prestigious as yours. Which sucks, because I define my self-worth by your opinion of me and my school.

EDIT: You're kind of a big deal.

Yeah bro. You're probably at some shitty job. There are jobs out the ass all over michigan and the US these days. All your place could manage was some TTTtiple shit grads. The top schools have like 0 people unemployed. Literally zero. Your employer could'nt pay enough to get some worthy bodies in there.

[taxnstuff]

It seems like whenever a TTT (or TT even) gets a jerb the people that went to top 50 schools get all up in arms about it