Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

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splitbrain
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:31 pm

Have you already asked Hastings for more aid?

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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby humbugger » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:36 pm

flem wrote:This might be a good situation for you to take a full ride at a TT in the region you want to settle in.


I think this is the best option.

California, though it sounds sexy, is not a good place to move to for a legal education. There are a lot of scary sounds coming out of UCH about tuition increases in coming years and rampant unemployment. Read up on it carefully if you're thinking about going there.

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ilovesf
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby ilovesf » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:41 pm

What schools did you initially apply to? Did you apply to any schools where you might get in and pay sticker, like Fordham? I was waitlisted there last year with a 3.35 and a 165, I imagine you'd be WL then accepted or just accepted. I'm not sure you'd get into WUSTL/Emory. I can't speak to Hastings job prospects yet since I haven't gone through OCI and I don't want to give out any wrong info.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:13 am

splitbrain wrote:Have you already asked Hastings for more aid?


I have, and they came up with another 10k/year, totaling ~110k.

ilovesf wrote:What schools did you initially apply to? Did you apply to any schools where you might get in and pay sticker, like Fordham? I was waitlisted there last year with a 3.35 and a 165, I imagine you'd be WL then accepted or just accepted. I'm not sure you'd get into WUSTL/Emory. I can't speak to Hastings job prospects yet since I haven't gone through OCI and I don't want to give out any wrong info.


I pretty much only applied to schools that offered me a waiver, since I didn't figure I'd get in anywhere and I would be taking the LSAT again.

But I applied to places like William and Mary, WUSTL, etc. I was waitlisted at all of them except OU. I got off the WL at Hastings and now they're offering me schollys for some reason.

According to LSN and LSP, I'd be in a strong position for Emory w/ a 165 and 3.66... Should I take this info with a grain of salt?

Thanks again, everyone.

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2014
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby 2014 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:19 am

I think you end up getting into better schools than Hastings next year, but they will be at sticker and I'm not sure your offer to Hastings holds next year either.

Right now schools are in an arms race with scholarship money trying to maintain medians and it isn't sustainable. I don't think it would surprise anyone if scholarship numbers next year are less and instead schools take "worse" candidates at sticker to fill classes.

Anyway I don't think you end up getting in anywhere worth paying sticker and so I would seriously consider just taking the Hastings offer and making the best of it (though their tuition hike screams TTT).

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:08 am

2014 wrote:I think you end up getting into better schools than Hastings next year, but they will be at sticker and I'm not sure your offer to Hastings holds next year either.

Right now schools are in an arms race with scholarship money trying to maintain medians and it isn't sustainable. I don't think it would surprise anyone if scholarship numbers next year are less and instead schools take "worse" candidates at sticker to fill classes.

Anyway I don't think you end up getting in anywhere worth paying sticker and so I would seriously consider just taking the Hastings offer and making the best of it (though their tuition hike screams TTT).


Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Do you really think I would be near sticker for Emory or BC? :|...

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sunynp
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby sunynp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:49 am

2014 wrote:I think you end up getting into better schools than Hastings next year, but they will be at sticker and I'm not sure your offer to Hastings holds next year either.

Right now schools are in an arms race with scholarship money trying to maintain medians and it isn't sustainable. I don't think it would surprise anyone if scholarship numbers next year are less and instead schools take "worse" candidates at sticker to fill classes.

Anyway I don't think you end up getting in anywhere worth paying sticker and so I would seriously consider just taking the Hastings offer and making the best of it (though their tuition hike screams TTT).


It would surprise me if scholarships are less because I think applications will keep going down. People are getting the message that law school is not worth what it costs. It is no coincidence that the drop in applications coincides with the beginning of transparency in employment stats. As there is more transparency and more people understand how terrible the job market really is, fewer people will take on the cost of tuition at law school.

I think students are getting much smarter about asking for aid too. My guess is that schools will fight to hold on to their medians with everything that they can. Now that those numbers can be audited by LSAC, they won't be able to game them at all. (note the auditing is voluntary but I think schools that don't participate will be pressured to participate.)

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2014
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby 2014 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

Mr.Binks wrote:
Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Do you really think I would be near sticker for Emory or BC? :|...

Aren't you below most of your list's LSAT medians? Your GPA is barely at their median and your LSAT is below, and that type of split is generally worth very little money to schools. Your target range of schools really calls for a 167-168 and you don't have it so yeah I think you are near sticker and those schools aren't worth it at that price.

sunynp wrote:It would surprise me if scholarships are less because I think applications will keep going down. People are getting the message that law school is not worth what it costs. It is no coincidence that the drop in applications coincides with the beginning of transparency in employment stats. As there is more transparency and more people understand how terrible the job market really is, fewer people will take on the cost of tuition at law school.

I think students are getting much smarter about asking for aid too. My guess is that schools will fight to hold on to their medians with everything that they can. Now that those numbers can be audited by LSAC, they won't be able to game them at all. (note the auditing is voluntary but I think schools that don't participate will be pressured to participate.)

This year's levels of scholarships are simply unsustainable. A bunch of law schools are going to see their profits cut by a huge margin next year and there is going to be pressure by administrations for them to make up for it. Unless schools are willing to pillage their endowments they are going to have to do something differently and one likely scenario is that they ease up admission standards slightly while offering less scholarships.

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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:31 pm

elizcbeth wrote:1. I think the Bay Area is not insular in the way that someone above is suggesting. They aren't concerned about flight risks; the Bay Area is way too cool for that :) They ARE insular in that they prefer CA schools. You're fine going to UC Hasting with good grades. DON'T go to TT if you can help it.


ime: the Bay Area isn't as homogeneous as people make it out to be. Wherever you go, you need to at least have a decent reason for wanting to be there. I think the SF firms/outposts are going to have a harder time believing this coming from people without ties. It's hard to have a good "why SF?" answer when you have no ties and the work that SF firms do isn't terribly unique. On the other hand, SV firms/outposts will still care about it but you can get away without ties and instead having a legitimate, sellable interest in tech/emergingcompany/IP work.

Agreed on the TT part. While some TTs are okay, I would never go to a CA TT (especially a NorCal one).

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:32 pm

2014 wrote:
Mr.Binks wrote:
Yeah, I get what you're saying.


Do you really think I would be near sticker for Emory or BC? :|..
Aren't you below most of your list's LSAT medians? Your GPA is barely at their median and your LSAT is below, and that type of split is generally worth very little money to schools. Your target range of schools really calls for a 167-168 and you don't have it so yeah I think you are near sticker and those schools aren't worth it at that price.


According to LSP, I'd be just at the median for both schools, while my GPA is slightly above the median for Emory.

This sucks. That 46% placement from Hastings scares me...

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flem
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby flem » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:35 pm

Wait, so you're up to 110K in total aid/scholarship from Hastings?

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:41 pm

flem wrote:Wait, so you're up to 110K in total aid/scholarship from Hastings?


Yep....

That's what makes the decision so difficult. They're offering me a ton of money, but LST shows their job placement to be horrific. Emory/BC, however, have a 20% higher job placement...

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ilovesf
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby ilovesf » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:43 pm

Mr.Binks wrote:
flem wrote:Wait, so you're up to 110K in total aid/scholarship from Hastings?


Yep....

That's what makes the decision so difficult. They're offering me a ton of money, but LST shows their job placement to be horrific. Emory/BC, however, have a 20% higher job placement...

What kind of job do you have now? Would you really be ok sitting out another year?

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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:03 pm

ilovesf wrote:
Mr.Binks wrote:
flem wrote:Wait, so you're up to 110K in total aid/scholarship from Hastings?


Yep....

That's what makes the decision so difficult. They're offering me a ton of money, but LST shows their job placement to be horrific. Emory/BC, however, have a 20% higher job placement...

What kind of job do you have now? Would you really be ok sitting out another year?


Just graduated UG, so I'm unemployed.. Sort of. I help out at the family business, but that's all I'm doing so far. If I sit out a year, the plan would be to move to TX to establish residency in hopes of being more competitive, albeit still a weak candidate, for UT. I would then find some sort of job there (I don't really care what, as long as it isn't shoveling shit or something) while I ride out the cycle.

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flem
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby flem » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:05 pm

Holy fuck, how does UC-Hastings leave you 140K in the hole even with 110K off sticker price? That is ridiculous.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:25 pm

flem wrote:Holy fuck, how does UC-Hastings leave you 140K in the hole even with 110K off sticker price? That is ridiculous.


Well, I guess it'd be roughly 80k after the 110k, mainly due to cost of living there.

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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby TTTehehe » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:26 pm

flem wrote:Holy fuck, how does UC-Hastings leave you 140K in the hole even with 110K off sticker price? That is ridiculous.


Hastings' tuition is damn near 50k. Add in COL in SF for 3 years, and I am not surprised with the 140K debt estimate.

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2014
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:52 pm

Mr.Binks wrote:
2014 wrote:
Mr.Binks wrote:
Yeah, I get what you're saying.


Do you really think I would be near sticker for Emory or BC? :|..
Aren't you below most of your list's LSAT medians? Your GPA is barely at their median and your LSAT is below, and that type of split is generally worth very little money to schools. Your target range of schools really calls for a 167-168 and you don't have it so yeah I think you are near sticker and those schools aren't worth it at that price.


According to LSP, I'd be just at the median for both schools, while my GPA is slightly above the median for Emory.

This sucks. That 46% placement from Hastings scares me...

I stand corrected about medians, I just assumed that since WUSTL was at 168 that the schools below it were 166-167 but it seems that last year BC and Emory were both 165 and there's no way that's going up with test takers dropping.

In that case I see your dilemma and I would probably wait. Still keep in mind that BC, Emory, and any school in that range are regional and not worth sticker or really anywhere close to it for most people and if next year you get in without meaningful $$$ don't get sucked into the idea that T30 is a worthwhile distinction. Make sure you apply to options that will offer you big scholarships as safeties and don't charge 50k in tuition for no reason.

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splitbrain
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby splitbrain » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:53 pm

Keep pressing Hastings for more aid. Your concerns are valid and honest and there's no reason to not try for more. Don't stop until they have said "no" two times in a row. I can't emphasize that enough.

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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:16 pm

splitbrain wrote:Keep pressing Hastings for more aid. Your concerns are valid and honest and there's no reason to not try for more. Don't stop until they have said "no" two times in a row. I can't emphasize that enough.


Suppose they keep offering me aid. At what point do you think it'd be worth it to accept their offer and forgo the possibilities of better schools with better opportunities? If Hastings leaves me with little chance of employment, it would seem that attending for even close to no cost might be a bad idea...

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flem
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby flem » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:26 pm

Mr.Binks wrote:Suppose they keep offering me aid. At what point do you think it'd be worth it to accept their offer and forgo the possibilities of better schools with better opportunities? If Hastings leaves me with little chance of employment, it would seem that attending for even close to no cost might be a bad idea...


I think you've got the correct idea. Less than 50% FT legal rate is fucking TTTastic. I just find that hard to believe but the numbers don't lie.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:57 pm

flem wrote:
Mr.Binks wrote:Suppose they keep offering me aid. At what point do you think it'd be worth it to accept their offer and forgo the possibilities of better schools with better opportunities? If Hastings leaves me with little chance of employment, it would seem that attending for even close to no cost might be a bad idea...


I think you've got the correct idea. Less than 50% FT legal rate is fucking TTTastic. I just find that hard to believe but the numbers don't lie.


:(...

Should I press them for $$ still, since it seems like a bad idea to go there no matter what?

Okay, so please let me know what you guys think of my plan (assuming I pass up on Hastings). I would move to TX sometime soon (I have a cousin out there, as well as a friend moving that way for school) to establish residency. While I wait, I would get some job (hopefully) that requires some sort of degree, at least, in order to add a bit of W/E to my resume.

For my schools, I'd apply to UT as a stretch (hoping in-state will help), as well as Emory, BC, BU, WUSTL, Fordham, etc. for my more realistic schools, and apply to a couple of safeties, such as UHouston, SMU, etc.

If I get UT, I'll take it at sticker, since in-state + cost of living is relatively low. Otherwise, I'll take Emory, BC, etc. if I get some sort of scholly there. If not, however, then I'll take the safeties that are likely to give me money, as well as a decent change at job placement.

What do you guys think?

Thanks a ton for all of your help, everyone. I'd be five-fold-fucked without you guys. <3

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flem
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby flem » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:01 pm

Are you Texas or bust, or do you just really like UT? Establishing residency in Texas would be good as it gives you UH as a backup (and is dirt cheap) and SMU (likely with money).

Even Emory/BU/BC/WashU aren't really worth it unless the discount is significant. You're still gonna be on the hook for 180K at any one of them if you snag say, 20K a year. Better to go to SMU with more money. There's not a significant enough jump in prospects to choose one of them over a school like SMU which you'll get more money at.

Sidenote: Lawl school is stupid expensive

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ilovesf
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby ilovesf » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:05 pm

If you want to live in Texas I'd go for uh/smu with money, because I don't think you'll get ut. Hastings could be worth it with more money, but not if you want to live elsewhere.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: Hastings with scholly vs. Next Cycle

Postby Mr.Binks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:11 pm

flem wrote:Are you Texas or bust, or do you just really like UT? Establishing residency in Texas would be good as it gives you UH as a backup (and is dirt cheap) and SMU (likely with money).

Even Emory/BU/BC/WashU aren't really worth it unless the discount is significant. You're still gonna be on the hook for 180K at any one of them if you snag say, 20K a year. Better to go to SMU with more money. There's not a significant enough jump in prospects to choose one of them over a school like SMU which you'll get more money at.

Sidenote: Lawl school is stupid expensive


I just really like UT. Ha. I wouldn't mind going somewhere else, though, but my chances are very slim for any T14, and since UT has to take 65% of Texans, I would hopefully be able to be accepted at sticker off the waitlist.

Yeah, I am hoping that BC, Emory, etc. are going to give me a pretty hefty discount, though probably not as much as Hastings offered me. If not, then I think UHouston would be a decent safety.

I guess the question is, is UHouston a better alternative than Hastings? Numbers say yes, but rankings disagree. What do you think, mate?

ilovesf wrote:If you want to live in Texas I'd go for uh/smu with money, because I don't think you'll get ut. Hastings could be worth it with more money, but not if you want to live elsewhere.


I wouldn't mind living in Texas, actually. I really don't have a preference where I live, but I'm not so sure SF would be terribly fitting for me.

ilovesf, what amount do you think would make Hastings worth it?




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