UNC v Vanderbilt

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

UNC 36k/yr or Vandy 70k/yr

UNC 36k/yr
25
58%
Vandy 70k/yr
18
42%
 
Total votes: 43

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JD Janitor
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UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:27 pm

I have been accepted to UNC and found out recently that I have been accepted to Vanderbilt.

-I want to stay in NC
-UNC COA= 37k/yr
-Vandy COA=70k/yr (according to website...havent researched)
-I have a great connection in NC with an NLJ250 and several other small firms

Lets assume no scholarships enter the equation because so far I have none at either school.

Vandy is basically twice the cost. Is it twice the school?

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TTTehehe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TTTehehe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:38 pm

JD Janitor wrote:I have been accepted to UNC and found out recently that I have been accepted to Vanderbilt.

-I want to stay in NC
-UNC COA= 37k/yr
-Vandy COA=70k/yr (according to website...havent researched)
-I have a great connection in NC with an NLJ250 and several other small firms

Lets assume no scholarships enter the equation because so far I have none at either school.

Vandy is basically twice the cost. Is it twice the school?


Easy, Vandy.

UNC is a great school and you would likely do well securing employment in NC coming from there, but Vandy is, well, Vandy - borderline T14 that places well in the South, and can give you the flexibility to go West/East.

Besides, with NC ties ("I want to stay in NC" leads me to believe you are a NC resident) you will likely have little trouble finding employment in NC for summer and post grad.

Edit: I misread your COA breakdown; after reading a comment about you paying sticker, I reread your costs. Sticker at Vandy is bad advice. If you get money, however, I still say Vandy > UNC. But you're going to UNC anyway :p
Last edited by TTTehehe on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheZoid
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TheZoid » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:43 pm

Sounds to me like it depends on how strong the connection is. If the NLJ250 firm has UNC grads there (I assume it has plenty), and you're pretty damn sure you have someone who can get you in the door, I'm not sure why you would pay so much more for Vandy, though it is a great school.

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:53 pm

I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot

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TTTehehe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TTTehehe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:03 pm

JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Sounds like you've pretty much made your decision. I still think Vandy would be a better choice, but it's not my money.

Can you try to squeeze a little more out of Vandy? Have you spoken with your NLJ250 connection and asked him/her for their opinion?

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:10 pm

.
Last edited by JD Janitor on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TTTehehe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TTTehehe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:16 pm

JD Janitor wrote:
TTTehehe wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Sounds like you've pretty much made your decision. I still think Vandy would be a better choice, but it's not my money.

Can you try to squeeze a little more out of Vandy? Have you spoken with your NLJ250 connection and asked him/her for their opinion?


I will have a conversation with the firm soon about this decision. I do plan to squeeze some money out of both schools but that hasnt happened yet so I have to work with what I have. I just wanted to make sure that choosing UNC over Vandy (the way I am leaning) is not a crazy idea.


Nah, not CRAZY. Maybe crazy, though :P J/k.

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:21 pm

TTTehehe wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:
TTTehehe wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Sounds like you've pretty much made your decision. I still think Vandy would be a better choice, but it's not my money.

Can you try to squeeze a little more out of Vandy? Have you spoken with your NLJ250 connection and asked him/her for their opinion?


I will have a conversation with the firm soon about this decision. I do plan to squeeze some money out of both schools but that hasnt happened yet so I have to work with what I have. I just wanted to make sure that choosing UNC over Vandy (the way I am leaning) is not a crazy idea.


Nah, not CRAZY. Maybe crazy, though :P J/k.


Haha and yes, I think I know what the firm will say...considering half of them are UNC grads.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:26 pm

Is NC the only thing that you want? If so, I would go to UNC and keep my debt low and continue to improve your connections by keeping in touch and staying in the area. No schools place really well into NC firms that pay a lot of money (except maybe HYS? I don't know), so Vandy does not give you an appreciable advantage - at least not one worth over $100k.

Also, even if you could do without NC, Vandy sticker is scary. Odds are against you to obtain a job that would allow you to reasonable pay off your debt. Go to UNC and hustle!

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Doorkeeper
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:27 pm

Both of these options are not ideal. Over 100k for UNC is not great, but 250k for Vandy is potentially suicide if you don't get biglaw. I would squeeze UNC and/or Vandy for money and reassess later.

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flem
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby flem » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:29 pm

JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Solid as in, you have a job waiting for you? If anything less, go to Vandy and enjoy the cushion for error.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:34 pm

flem wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Solid as in, you have a job waiting for you? If anything less, go to Vandy and enjoy the cushion for error.


Unless I just look at the world in the wrong way, this "cushion" is probably not worth $100k. Vandy has good placement. But it is not worth a quarter of a million dollars nor $100k more, especially for OP's interests.

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akili
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby akili » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:34 pm

Definitely tell UNC about your acceptance at Vandy and see if they'll offer you money. If they do, I'd take that.

Sticker at Vandy is a loooot of money.

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TTTehehe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TTTehehe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:38 pm

flem wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Solid as in, you have a job waiting for you? If anything less, go to Vandy and enjoy the cushion for error.


That's pretty much what you're paying for. A lot of people go into law school with ties, secure jobs, ambition to be top of the class, etc., but I think Mike Tyson said it best (Yes, I'm quoting Mike Tyson): "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

You do not know how well you will perform or how you will feel in 3 years. If that firm in NC will take you with below median grades FOR SURE, and your connection is as solid as you say, then UNC may work for YOU.

That being said, Vandy gives you more cushion, as stated above, for a number of different scenarios (not top of class, change of heart in type of law, etc.)

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:44 pm

TTTehehe wrote:
flem wrote:
JD Janitor wrote:I have a pretty solid connection with the NLJ250...

And Vandy would end up costing 100k more. 100k is alot


Solid as in, you have a job waiting for you? If anything less, go to Vandy and enjoy the cushion for error.


That's pretty much what you're paying for. A lot of people go into law school with ties, secure jobs, ambition to be top of the class, etc., but I think Mike Tyson said it best (Yes, I'm quoting Mike Tyson): "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

You do not know how well you will perform or how you will feel in 3 years. If that firm in NC will take you with below median grades FOR SURE, and your connection is as solid as you say, then UNC may work for YOU.

That being said, Vandy gives you more cushion, as stated above, for a number of different scenarios (not top of class, change of heart in type of law, etc.)


Noone has said that I have a "job waiting for me". It has been said that I will have a chance to return and I have seen this happen with others whom have worked in varying capacities at the firm and were then hired as associates after graduating from UNC.

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PDaddy
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby PDaddy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:48 pm

What a shame it is that this is even debatable. Just four years ago, there would have been absolutely no question as to which school to choose. Nobody knew how bad it would get, and the economy is just THAT bad for new attorneys/wannabes.

My gut says Vandy is still the better choice in your situation, but it really comes down to what kind of portability you want, how much potential debt you can stomach, how risk-averse you are, and how creative you believe you can be if/when you graduate. No matter what, you are and should be in charge of your own destiny, a reality that was masked by the biglaw gravy train of the intervening 15 years between 1995 and 2010.

You must try to get money from whatever sources you can, including the schools.

Virtually all 1L's believe they will wind up in the top-10% (especially at these schools), which means 90% of the 1L's at your school - whichever one you pick - are going to be very disappointed in about 11 months. A significant portion of that 90% will wish they had never enrolled.

employment_numbers
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby employment_numbers » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm

You should compare employment numbers and gauge your appetite for risk:

Underemployment rate (as defined by non-professional positions, listed as unemployed, and part-time positions): Vandy 18% vs. UNC 19%

Full-time, bar required minus school-funded and <10 person firms: Vandy 68% vs. UNC 53%

BigLaw (250+): Vandy 25% vs. UNC 11%

Sounds like you aren't interested in PI, where UNC has the advantage (9% to 3%) or Federal employment (which often means federal clerkships), where Vandy has the advantage (10% to 5%).

What it looks like to me is that you pay the extra 100K to be part of a community where an additional 15% of the class goes on to big law, and then an additional 15% at the middle-bottom of the class takes their spots in less selective positions. That being said, the fact that Vandy's LSAT median is higher by 6 pts means that you would probably rank higher at UNC. Given all that, I'd choose UNC.

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flem
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby flem » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:10 pm

employment_numbers wrote:That being said, the fact that Vandy's LSAT median is higher by 6 pts means that you would probably rank higher at UNC. Given all that, I'd choose UNC.

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:29 pm

employment_numbers wrote:You should compare employment numbers and gauge your appetite for risk:

Underemployment rate (as defined by non-professional positions, listed as unemployed, and part-time positions): Vandy 18% vs. UNC 19%

Full-time, bar required minus school-funded and <10 person firms: Vandy 68% vs. UNC 53%

BigLaw (250+): Vandy 25% vs. UNC 11%

Sounds like you aren't interested in PI, where UNC has the advantage (9% to 3%) or Federal employment (which often means federal clerkships), where Vandy has the advantage (10% to 5%).

What it looks like to me is that you pay the extra 100K to be part of a community where an additional 15% of the class goes on to big law, and then an additional 15% at the middle-bottom of the class takes their spots in less selective positions. That being said, the fact that Vandy's LSAT median is higher by 6 pts means that you would probably rank higher at UNC. Given all that, I'd choose UNC.


Im not interested in helping people. I'll just be another greedy lawyer.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby rickgrimes69 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:44 pm

Neither of these options are worth what you'd be paying. If you're dead set on a decision go UNC, only because if you strike out at Biglaw you're less fucked with 100k in debt versus 250k.

Notice how I said less fucked.

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TTTehehe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby TTTehehe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:47 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Neither of these options are worth what you'd be paying. If you're dead set on a decision go UNC, only because if you strike out at Biglaw you're less fucked with 100k in debt versus 250k.

Notice how I said less fucked.


:lol:

Edit: Forgot to bold my favorite line.

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JD Janitor
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby JD Janitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:50 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Neither of these options are worth what you'd be paying. If you're dead set on a decision go UNC, only because if you strike out at Biglaw you're less fucked with 100k in debt versus 250k.

Notice how I said less fucked.



Its sad...the economy is so fucked up now that smart people are suggesting someone would be better off not attending a respectable law school. Wish I went through this whole process 8 years ago.

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flem
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby flem » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:53 pm

JD Janitor wrote:Its sad...the economy is so fucked up now that smart people are suggesting not to attend a respectable law school. Wish I went through this whole process 8 years ago.


WELCOME TO OBAMA'S AMERICA























Just kidding. How solid is that firm connection you were talking about? Like, you know some doods? Or you have an offer and you just have to pass the bar?

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jenesaislaw
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:06 pm

employment_numbers wrote:You should compare employment numbers and gauge your appetite for risk:

Underemployment rate (as defined by non-professional positions, listed as unemployed, and part-time positions): Vandy 18% vs. UNC 19%

Full-time, bar required minus school-funded and <10 person firms: Vandy 68% vs. UNC 53%

BigLaw (250+): Vandy 25% vs. UNC 11%

Sounds like you aren't interested in PI, where UNC has the advantage (9% to 3%) or Federal employment (which often means federal clerkships), where Vandy has the advantage (10% to 5%).

What it looks like to me is that you pay the extra 100K to be part of a community where an additional 15% of the class goes on to big law, and then an additional 15% at the middle-bottom of the class takes their spots in less selective positions. That being said, the fact that Vandy's LSAT median is higher by 6 pts means that you would probably rank higher at UNC. Given all that, I'd choose UNC.


On the off chance you do not see my post in the other thread, I am going to reply here too.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but you're doing more harm than good. Your numbers and process are flatly wrong.

Vanderbilt, using your computation, has 34 in your underemployed category. Divide 34 into 198, you get 17%. Divide it into 195 (i.e. subtracting unknowns) and you get 17%. It looks like you subtracted unknowns from the denominator and then double counted non-professional part-timers. Ditto for UNC.

For your legal employment rate, you're being misleading. First, not all school-funded jobs fall into the full-time BPR or long-term, full-time BPR categories. Second, not all graduates in non-solo shops of 2-10 attorneys are hanging a shingle together. Many suspect that it is a non-negligible number, but there's insufficient data to back this up. By all means, flag schools that place an inordinate amount of graduates in these jobs so that people know to ask questions of those schools, but it is irresponsible and damaging to put a worse face on the numbers than adequate evidence supports.

I suggest you use LST's Employment and Under-Employment Scores instead. It will save you some time and encourage people to look at things for themselves instead of believing your analysis.

Additional point specific to this post: "federal" on the ABA summary means "federal clerk" (whether term or for an infinite duration) -- not the other branches.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: UNC v Vanderbilt

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:39 pm

No one has yet to post a convincing reason why Vandy at sticker is a good idea . . .




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