URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
androstan
Posts: 2553
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:07 am

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby androstan » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:17 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.


Word around the campfire is that if you're a URM and can't break into the T13, Howard is a great option.

Howard Employment Stats (LinkRemoved)

47.1% employment score, 11% biglaw score, 2% fed clerkships, 25.5% underemployment of which 19.1% are unemployed, and 11% unknown (probably unemployed).

William & Mary Employment Stats (LinkRemoved)

54.4% employment score, 7% biglaw score, 7.4% fed clerkships, 26% underemployment of which 20% are unemployed, and 2% unknown (probably unemployed).

Suprisingly, W&M isn't unambiguously better. Gonna want top 10% or so at either to get biglaw. Retake the LSAT or take the money and run.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:45 pm

Jeopardy06 wrote:Attorneys that I know and Trust speak highly of the school for the employment prospects. I'll be okay with sub-100k jobs starting out if its the right environment, but I in NO way expect or will be looking for jobs that pay less than 50k. The thought of that is absolutely abysmal and would make it hard for me to justify leaving the workforce now.


Well around 50K is the most likely outcome, and you'll be doing that with probably well over 100K in total debt if your scholly is top 15-20%. It seems like you need to stay in your job right now.

The fact is that there are really no nice 80K per year 9-5 jobs to fall back on, and it's either biglaw or 40-60K or unemployed. This is pretty widely known. In fact, the students who got those jobs at Howard or W+M should consider themselves lucky they are not unemployed or working retail/food service industry.

Anecdotally, I also heard a ridiculous story about Howard OCI- something about a student going on 17 callbacks and not getting a single offer.

User avatar
TTTehehe
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:00 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby TTTehehe » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:21 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Jeopardy06 wrote:Attorneys that I know and Trust speak highly of the school for the employment prospects. I'll be okay with sub-100k jobs starting out if its the right environment, but I in NO way expect or will be looking for jobs that pay less than 50k. The thought of that is absolutely abysmal and would make it hard for me to justify leaving the workforce now.


Well around 50K is the most likely outcome, and you'll be doing that with probably well over 100K in total debt if your scholly is top 15-20%. It seems like you need to stay in your job right now.

The fact is that there are really no nice 80K per year 9-5 jobs to fall back on, and it's either biglaw or 40-60K or unemployed. This is pretty widely known. In fact, the students who got those jobs at Howard or W+M should consider themselves lucky they are not unemployed or working retail/food service industry.

Anecdotally, I also heard a ridiculous story about Howard OCI- something about a student going on 17 callbacks and not getting a single offer.


The only time I would recommend HU to a URM is if he/she is 1. prior military and planning to return as JAG; or 2. if he/she is planning on TRYING to go to JAG, and is willing to take any branch specialty should he/she not get JAG. Pay is better, and there is loan repayment. Beats the heck out of 50k.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby 20121109 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:43 pm

With permission, posting a PM.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Appears like I stand corrected. Thank you for the insight; I was always under the impression that for URMs, Howard is a good choice. I wonder why so many employers come only to hire so few?


In my opinion, the issue deals with how law schools rank students. Think for a moment about all of the schools that do well at OCI - none of them rank students (or not beyond the top 10%). While firms can determine where someone is relative to their classmates, they don't have to worry about transparency. For example, they can openly claim top 10% required and justify hiring someone with a 3.3 from a T14 by claiming that they do not know where that person ranks in their class (i.e. they don't know -for sure- if the candidate meets that requirement) - this claim isn't for internal reasons; it's for external ones (generally third party interest). Howard, like most law schools, ranks, and so if asked about it by a third party, firms cannot pretend that they are not exceeding their own hiring standards by hiring a top 33% person.

However, that would beg the question, why OCI at Howard at all? In my opinion, it's mostly just for PR reasons because it doesn't make sense otherwise:
1. Firms prefer to OCI at schools with large class sizes because it allows them to make the most out of their trip (i.e. they can hire 20+ candidates on one visit). Howard has a small class size ~133 students. Even if the firms actually wanted to hire students, they would be fighting over each other for a few students.
2. Firms prefer to OCI at T18 schools (in part due to school rank, and in part due to not worrying about the rank of students). Howard is ranked in the third tier (or second, or whatever) and ranks students.
3. Firms claim they want diversity, but they are on average about 4% AA. The study about why there are no AA's in corporate law states that 77%+ of AA partners in firms went to Harvard. Howard is not Harvard, and Howard thus is not really well represented in firms (even with its Harvard rivaling OCI). Also, summer class sizes have one or two AA URM's at most.
....

My point is that is OCI-ing at Howard appears to mostly be a public relations initiative designed to -show- that firms are seeking diversity

User avatar
rickgrimes69
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:56 am

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:54 pm

androstan wrote:
Word around the campfire is that if you're a URM and can't break into the T13, Howard is a great option.


Solid anti-GULC trolling.

PM Poster wrote: My point is that is OCI-ing at Howard appears to mostly be a public relations initiative designed to -show- that firms are seeking diversity


Well, yeah. Does anyone really want a URM who couldn't even leverage their admissions handicap well enough to get into a T13?

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby flem » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:38 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:Well, yeah. Does anyone really want a URM who couldn't even leverage their admissions handicap well enough to get into a T13?


159

User avatar
androstan
Posts: 2553
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:07 am

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby androstan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:04 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
androstan wrote:
Word around the campfire is that if you're a URM and can't break into the T13, Howard is a great option.


Solid anti-GULC trolling.



Everyone knows GULC is just another T18 with USC/Vandy/Tex/UCLA.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby 20121109 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:29 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
PM Poster wrote: My point is that is OCI-ing at Howard appears to mostly be a public relations initiative designed to -show- that firms are seeking diversity


Well, yeah. Does anyone really want a URM who couldn't even leverage their admissions handicap well enough to get into a T13?


Don't be an asshole.

Consider this a warning.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:44 pm

Wow a lost a lot of respect for Howard law after reading this thread. I had no idea that they put grade stipulations on their scholarships. Otherwise I was going to tell the OP to run to Howard. If there really is a grade stipulation on the scholarship OP you are just going to have to retake. Going to Howard without a scholarship has a high likelihood of ruining your life--and I'm not being hyperbolic. The same applies to W&M. Feel free to PM me if you want the opinion of a current AA male law student.

User avatar
rickgrimes69
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:56 am

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:23 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
PM Poster wrote: My point is that is OCI-ing at Howard appears to mostly be a public relations initiative designed to -show- that firms are seeking diversity


Well, yeah. Does anyone really want a URM who couldn't even leverage their admissions handicap well enough to get into a T13?


Don't be an asshole.

Consider this a warning.


I was being sarcastic. No offense intended.

User avatar
Teflon_Jeff
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:43 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby Teflon_Jeff » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:31 pm

androstan wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
androstan wrote:
Word around the campfire is that if you're a URM and can't break into the T13, Howard is a great option.


Solid anti-GULC trolling.



Everyone knows GULC is just another T18 with USC/Vandy/Tex/UCLA.


Solid UMN Trolling. ;-)

User avatar
jrstephens1991
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:58 pm

Re: URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k)

Postby jrstephens1991 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:45 am

JetsFan1990 wrote:
Teflon_Jeff wrote:Neither.

That Stip is laughably ridiculous, and neither school will get you where you want to go.


This.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cogburn1984 and 4 guests