Decision time

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joecham
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Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:55 pm

I'm down to the wire, University of San Francisco(free for the first year, 14K per year after that) v. Catholic U(completely free for all three years). I have a slight west coast preference but I'm also interested in what DC has to offer. Also very interested in the securities institute at CUA. Any thoughts?..............

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Samara
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Re: Decision time

Postby Samara » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:59 pm

TCR is to go to neither and/or retake the LSAT. But, if you are going to insist on going, do Catholic.

What are the stipulations are on the scholarship?

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

No plans to retake the LSAT, I'm going this year. There are no GPA requirements to keep my Scholly at CUA(yellow ribbon).

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noleknight16
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Re: Decision time

Postby noleknight16 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:09 pm

Both schools are trash. But I guess as long as Catholic is completely free it can work.

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Samara
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Re: Decision time

Postby Samara » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:12 pm

joecham wrote:No plans to retake the LSAT, I'm going this year. There are no GPA requirements to keep my Scholly at CUA(yellow ribbon).

Well, you should retake, but I don't feel like arguing about it.

A full-ride with no stips, isn't the worst idea, even at Catholic. What about living expenses? You could easily end up with $60k of debt by graduation, even with tuition covered. Just know that unemployment is a very possible outcome from Catholic and that biglaw or other similarly desirable jobs will be acquired by less than 10% of the class.

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:18 pm

noleknight16, wow that was constructive........

Samara, living expenses are 100% covered. I realize that biglaw only looks at the top performers, that is not necessarily the end all be all for me, I wouldn't even mind government work.

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Dr. Review
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Re: Decision time

Postby Dr. Review » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:21 pm

joecham wrote:I wouldn't even mind government work.


:lol:

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Samara
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Re: Decision time

Postby Samara » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:22 pm

joecham wrote:noleknight16, wow that was constructive........

Samara, living expenses are 100% covered. I realize that biglaw only looks at the top performers, that is not necessarily the end all be all for me, I wouldn't even mind government work.

Okay, so all you're losing is opportunity cost. That's not so bad. Just be realistic about your possibilities and know that far greater opportunities exist at better schools. For c/o 2010, a full quarter of the class failed to secure full-time employment. Good federal gov't jobs are hard to come by these days; they shouldn't be looked at as a backup option.

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Nova
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Re: Decision time

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:23 pm

Samara wrote:TCR is to go to neither and/or retake the LSAT.

abc12345675
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Re: Decision time

Postby abc12345675 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:26 pm

They're both bad options. You're talking about schools in attractive markets that have a ton of other law schools/out of market people trying to break in.

The better idea for you would be to go to a similarly ranked school in an area of the country without much competition.

As for your government backup- DOJ is hiring less than 40 people TOTAL. Second, you do realize that good students at top 50 schools want those jobs for the loan forgiveness plan, right?

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noleknight16
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Re: Decision time

Postby noleknight16 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:42 pm

joecham wrote:noleknight16, wow that was constructive........

Samara, living expenses are 100% covered. I realize that biglaw only looks at the top performers, that is not necessarily the end all be all for me, I wouldn't even mind government work.


You asked for thoughts and I gave you my thoughts. Catholic for free isn't the worst option in the world, but both schools are trash in this legal market.

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:43 pm

ok....got it, if you don't get into a top law school then you are a dumbass and you shouldn't go to law school. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the free advice, constructive or otherwise. I realize that the public sector is also competative right now, I have some contacts and background that lends itself to that market.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Decision time

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:45 pm

I'd like to propose a slight modification to this.

Samara wrote:Half-decent Good federal gov't jobs are hard to come by these days; they shouldn't be looked at as a backup option.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Decision time

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:47 pm

joecham wrote:ok....got it, if you don't get into a top law school then you are a dumbass and you shouldn't go to law school. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the free advice, constructive or otherwise. I realize that the public sector is also competative right now, I have some contacts and background that lends itself to that market.


Not this. The correct statement is more like: "if you don't get into a top law school then you most likely won't be getting a full time legal job with any kind of reasonable salary. So just be aware of that, and avoid debt if at all possible if you still insist on going."

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noleknight16
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Re: Decision time

Postby noleknight16 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:49 pm

joecham wrote:ok....got it, if you don't get into a top law school then you are a dumbass and you shouldn't go to law school. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the free advice, constructive or otherwise. I realize that the public sector is also competative right now, I have some contacts and background that lends itself to that market.


No I'm not saying that at all. I'm not even going to be attending a top law school this fall (in-state Tier1). I'm saying that don't expect a good job out of Catholic or SF in this legal market. They aren't good options.

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Nova
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Re: Decision time

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:51 pm

joecham wrote:ok....got it, if you don't get into a top law school then you are a dumbass and you shouldn't go to law school.


No one is saying that.

Both schools give you less that a 44% chance of gaining long term, full time, legal employment by nine months after graduation. If you arent employed at that point, it is very unlikely you will ever be able to gain JD required long term full time employment.

Catholics stats are better, and its free. Go there, I guess. But the best option is far and away to retake the LSAT.


LST: Catholic wrote:43.7% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. This figure includes no school-funded jobs..
78.9% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
79.3% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.



LST; USF wrote:34.2% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. This figure includes no school-funded jobs..
53.6% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
55% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.


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Last edited by Nova on Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ggocat
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Re: Decision time

Postby ggocat » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:53 pm

Samara wrote:What are the stipulations are on the scholarship?

joecham wrote:There are no GPA requirements to keep my Scholly at CUA(yellow ribbon).

Based on this exchange, I'm assuming there is a GPA requirement for San Francisco. Therefore, Catholic is a much better choice.

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:56 pm

Understood...... the legal market is not great. Let me rephrase the question, does anybody have first hand experience with USF or CUA? or the markets in DC or san fran? I can also read USNWR and LST, I'm looking for new information based on experience, maybe I'm in the wrong place.....

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Nova
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Re: Decision time

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:01 pm

Wait, so you KNEW that USF only places 1/3 of its class in long term, full time, JD required, legal employment... and you are still considering attending?

PFFFF

Go ahead.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Decision time

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:01 pm

joecham wrote:Understood...... the legal market is not great. Let me rephrase the question, does anybody have first hand experience with USF or CUA? or the markets in DC or san fran? I can also read USNWR and LST, I'm looking for new information based on experience, maybe I'm in the wrong place.....



Yes. Both markets are absolutely saturated.

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:08 pm

PFFFF.....ok, let me ask you you this, do any of you have full time, JD required jobs? or do you have a full time gig poo pooing law schools. It's a week day for christ sake

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prezidentv8
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Re: Decision time

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:08 pm

joecham wrote:PFFFF.....ok, let me ask you you this, do any of you have full time, JD required jobs? or do you have a full time gig poo pooing law schools. It's a week day for christ sake


No job, studying for bar.

Edit: So yes, that means I stare at my computer all day every day til the end of July.

joecham
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Re: Decision time

Postby joecham » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:10 pm

well good luck to you, I'm not being sarcastic I appreciate the candor.

pballer
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Re: Decision time

Postby pballer » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:12 pm

I don't understand how this happens over and over and over on these forums. People come with 2 options that have a negative expected value relative to opportunity costs (or worse if they're not on a full ride) and then get pissy when people try to dissuade them from throwing away time/money. Taking a year to save up money/get work experience/potentially increase your probability of obtaining a good job does not seem like that hard of a pill to swallow.

OP: The markets you asked about are incredibly saturated and you'll be competing with people at substantially better schools. The likelihood of obtaining a full-time legal position at all in those areas is low; the likelihood of obtaining a good full-time legal position is terrible.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Decision time

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:13 pm

joecham wrote:well good luck to you, I'm not being sarcastic I appreciate the candor.


Sure. Just make sure you educate yourself - thoroughly - before making any decisions.




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