GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

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sunynp
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GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby sunynp » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:20 pm

We’ve got a school scolding students for being too comfortable in the post-graduate employment program the school itself designed to evade telling the truth to U.S. News….


The letter from George Washington University Law School dean Paul Schiff Berman to students enrolled in the school’s Pathways to Practice Program is incredibly tone-deaf and downright mean-spirited given that it comes right in the middle of bar prep time for GW’s most recent graduating class. The memo also lays bare that Berman’s Pathways program is nothing more than a bald attempt to game the employment statistics in a way that makes it look good for U.S. News. Nothing more.

Pathways to Practice is one of those initiatives you see popping up at law schools all across the country. Students who are not able to secure post-graduate legal employment can be employed by the law school doing some nominal task for 35 hours a week, but their main job is getting a real job. The programs last for a year: 35 hours a week for a year is just enough to call the position “full-time” and “long-term,” and this satisfies the U.S. News boxes for “employed upon graduation” and “employed nine months after graduation.”

Making things right with U.S. News is what the school cares about — trust me, if the school really cared about the students, the clock would start ticking on their year not from when they graduated, but from when the bar results were available in their state. That’s the year after graduation, when unemployed recent graduates have a shot at getting a job. If you couldn’t get a job as a 3L, you’re not going to be able to get a job as a 4L studying for the bar, and everybody knows that. But the schools aren’t trying to make these programs work in reality, they’re trying to make these programs aid their place in the rankings.




http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/law-scho ... find-a-job


I'm shocked that GW would do this to unemployed students they agreed to help. But then I'm surprised at how naive I am, GW doesn't care about the students, they only care about the rankings.

There is more in the article about how rude and condescending the Dean was in his letter- he is cutting the stipend by third because he heard rumors of people turning down jobs so they could keep their stipend (which seems very unlikely to me) and to incentivize students in the fellowships to find jobs.

I might quote more later - but this really sickens me. I sortof hate GW.

abc12345675
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:26 pm

sunynp wrote:
We’ve got a school scolding students for being too comfortable in the post-graduate employment program the school itself designed to evade telling the truth to U.S. News….


The letter from George Washington University Law School dean Paul Schiff Berman to students enrolled in the school’s Pathways to Practice Program is incredibly tone-deaf and downright mean-spirited given that it comes right in the middle of bar prep time for GW’s most recent graduating class. The memo also lays bare that Berman’s Pathways program is nothing more than a bald attempt to game the employment statistics in a way that makes it look good for U.S. News. Nothing more.

Pathways to Practice is one of those initiatives you see popping up at law schools all across the country. Students who are not able to secure post-graduate legal employment can be employed by the law school doing some nominal task for 35 hours a week, but their main job is getting a real job. The programs last for a year: 35 hours a week for a year is just enough to call the position “full-time” and “long-term,” and this satisfies the U.S. News boxes for “employed upon graduation” and “employed nine months after graduation.”

Making things right with U.S. News is what the school cares about — trust me, if the school really cared about the students, the clock would start ticking on their year not from when they graduated, but from when the bar results were available in their state. That’s the year after graduation, when unemployed recent graduates have a shot at getting a job. If you couldn’t get a job as a 3L, you’re not going to be able to get a job as a 4L studying for the bar, and everybody knows that. But the schools aren’t trying to make these programs work in reality, they’re trying to make these programs aid their place in the rankings.




http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/law-scho ... find-a-job


I'm shocked that GW would do this to unemployed students they agreed to help. But then I'm surprised at how naive I am, GW doesn't care about the students, they only care about the rankings.

There is more in the article about how rude and condescending the Dean was in his letter- he is cutting the stipend by third because he heard rumors of people turning down jobs so they could keep their stipend (which seems very unlikely to me) and to incentivize students in the fellowships to find jobs.

I might quote more later - but this really sickens me. I sortof hate GW.


When will people realize these are businesses? They care as much about you as you care about them.

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jas1503
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby jas1503 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:52 am

sunynp wrote:

Pathways to Practice is one of those initiatives you see popping up at law schools all across the country. Students who are not able to secure post-graduate legal employment can be employed by the law school doing some nominal task for 35 hours a week, but their main job is getting a real job. The programs last for a year: 35 hours a week for a year is just enough to call the position “full-time” and “long-term,” and this satisfies the U.S. News boxes for “employed upon graduation” and “employed nine months after graduation.”



GW is private, so that's why this isn't a glorified welfare-program, right?

Any public universities running this type of program?

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jkpolk
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby jkpolk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:54 am

So you rail against them when they fund these positions, and then you rail against them when they dont fund these positions. Sorry brother, for all the cocaine- GW must really suck

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sunynp
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby sunynp » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:49 am

jas1503 wrote:
sunynp wrote:

Pathways to Practice is one of those initiatives you see popping up at law schools all across the country. Students who are not able to secure post-graduate legal employment can be employed by the law school doing some nominal task for 35 hours a week, but their main job is getting a real job. The programs last for a year: 35 hours a week for a year is just enough to call the position “full-time” and “long-term,” and this satisfies the U.S. News boxes for “employed upon graduation” and “employed nine months after graduation.”



GW is private, so that's why this isn't a glorified welfare-program, right?

Any public universities running this type of program?


If you are interested the ABA numbers show school funded positions, but yes both private and public institutions have them as far as I know. These students have actual fellowships with PI organizations, the school pays them because the organizations can't.

I'm not against the school funding jobs, I'm against the school counting all these jobs in their employment numbers to make them look better than they would otherwise.

For what it is worth, GW realized they made an error in cutting the funding so they are restoring the payment to the original amount they promised to pay. That amount is $15 an hour for 35 hours a week.
http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/george-w ... e-funding/
Last edited by sunynp on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby flem » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:50 am

Are you a Campos alt or something bro?

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sunynp
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby sunynp » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:51 am

flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?

Nope. I just think that most people who went to GW expected to be earning more than $15 an hour when they graduated.

abc12345675
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby abc12345675 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:55 am

flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?


Campos is a joke. I saw him speak one time and heard him rail Justice Scalia for a good 20 minutes. Newsflash pal, you're not smarter than Justice Scalia and you're not a better authority on Constitutional Law than him, either.

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Wily
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Wily » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:56 am

What do the GW grads actually do to make the $15/hr? Do they actually work in a firm, or do they get paid for doing nothing just to inflate GW's employment percentage?

I make more than that right now and I'm considering going to GW...

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minnbills
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby minnbills » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:57 am

GW is a notorious degree mill, not surprised

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jkpolk
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby jkpolk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:00 am

abc12345675 wrote:
flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?


heard him rail Justice Scalia for a good 20 minutes.


you listened to him have sex with another man?

Yossarian79
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Yossarian79 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:40 am

As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:20 pm

Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.


This is credited.

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20130312
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby 20130312 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:41 pm

sunynp wrote:
flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?

Nope. I just think that most people who went to GW expected to be earning more than $15 $10 an hour when they graduated.


With updated rate.

ETA: Oh, I see it's back up to $15... big money.

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ru2486
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby ru2486 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:35 pm

polkij333 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:
flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?


heard him rail Justice Scalia for a good 20 minutes.


you listened to him have sex with another man?


169

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:44 pm

Dean Berman wrote:Also, I have now heard several anecdotal reports of graduates turning down paying work so that they can remain in the Pathways Program and hopefully find more desirable work later. This is not how the Program is intended to be used. You should jump at any paying legal work opportunity, and if it’s not your ideal position, then use it as a launchpad for your next search.
Damn. It's like the back of his hand rose from the page to slap the reader across the face.

polkij333 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:
flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?


heard him rail Justice Scalia for a good 20 minutes.


you listened to him have sex with another man?


--ImageRemoved--

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androstan
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby androstan » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:53 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.


This is credited.


+1

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spleenworship
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby spleenworship » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:01 pm

Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.



I think I love you.

polkij333 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:
flem wrote:Are you a Campos alt or something bro?


heard him rail Justice Scalia for a good 20 minutes.


you listened to him have sex with another man?


I lol'd

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ggocat
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby ggocat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:11 pm

What year was the program created? Anyone know?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:36 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.



I think I love you.



androstan wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.


This is credited.


+1

lolol. You'd have to be the least self-aware partisan retard ever to think that Scalia isn't smart. You might reasonably disagree with his positions, but if you hear him speak and think "this guy isn't smart" then that probably says something negative about your own intelligence.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:24 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.



I think I love you.



androstan wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Yossarian79 wrote:As has been said about Newt Gingrich, Scalia is a dumb person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.


This is credited.


+1

lolol. You'd have to be the least self-aware partisan retard ever to think that Scalia isn't smart. You might reasonably disagree with his positions, but if you hear him speak and think "this guy isn't smart" then that probably says something negative about your own intelligence.


He never said Scalia was dumb, just that dumb people think he's smart.

Although, he has had some pretty awful opinions (citizens united anyone?)

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Bildungsroman
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:15 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Although, he has had some pretty awful opinions (citizens united anyone?)

Citizens United was an excellent opinion. One of the best in recent years. hth

Yossarian79
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Yossarian79 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:54 pm

"You might reasonably disagree with his positions, but if you hear him speak and think "this guy isn't smart" then that probably says something negative about your own intelligence."

He's not a dumb person, and he's certainly a gifted rhetorician. But this myth about his uniquely acute intellect, to which the rest of us mortals can merely aspire, needs to die a quick death.

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spleenworship
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:07 pm

Yossarian79 wrote:"You might reasonably disagree with his positions, but if you hear him speak and think "this guy isn't smart" then that probably says something negative about your own intelligence."

He's not a dumb person, and he's certainly a gifted rhetorician. But this myth about his uniquely acute intellect, to which the rest of us mortals can merely aspire, needs to die a quick death.

^^^

This is what I was trying to say Bils.

Stop drinking the UChi kool-aide.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: GW cuts$ for student fellowships created to game USNews rank

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:57 pm

That's cool, totally misconstrue what the post I quoted said.




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