GW vs. Irvine

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blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:48 am

padawanphil wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:We'll see. Even if they do miraculously start in the 20s (almost no chance since USN values 'rep' so highly), they will drop imo. At best they will level at Davis or Hastings. Why otherwise? Just because Chermerinsky is dean or they are paying off their first classes? NO.


Don't forget that "reputation" is 20% of a school's USNWR ranking (fwiw, USNWR is probably the worst there is), and with a new law school, especially one that sprouts out of a prestigious university like UCI and has a top faculty, reputation is defined by how you hit the ground. People often forget that the reputation of a college/university as a whole factors into the reputation of its graduate schools.

To the extent that the law community is already familiar with the UC system and its quality of education (as well as the stellar performances of UC-Berkeley and UCLA law schools), the fact that UCI is a new law school won't negatively impact its rankings - and it's graduates will receive practical training and good employment upon graduation. UCI will hit the ground running, much like NYU did when it was new. I would not be shocked if UCI manages to rank at #19 or so, but i don't expect it...#25 or so sounds about right. And i do believe the school will sustain it long-term.

UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA


Low blow dude, low blow. I'll always be an Anteater even if I end up being a Colonial too, and UCI's undergrad is ranked 45th while UC Riverside's undergrad is ranked 97th. UCLA is 25th.
Last edited by blurose on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:49 am

The ironic part is that many T14 students who wind up below median would have been better-off at UCI because of the attention to employment the schools gives. They have no choice but to work their tails off to ensure that everyone is well-educated, and received practical training and employment. The school's future depends on it.

Shoot...right now, for CA employment you're probably better off at UCI than below median at Duke or Cornell. UCI is placing students outside of Cali, as well. That's one of the ways it intends to distinguish itself from the other UC schools.
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:49 am

PDaddy wrote:The ironic part is that many T14 students who wind up below median would have been better-off at UCI because of the attention to employment the schools gives. They have no choice but to work their tails off to ensure that everyone is well-educated, and received practical training and employment. The school's future depends on it.

Shoot...right now, you're probably better off at UCI than below median at Duke or Cornell.


I love all the wild speculation you bring to this thread.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 am

PDaddy wrote:The ironic part is that many T14 students who wind up below median would have been better-off at UCI because of the attention to employment the schools gives. They have no choice but to work their tails off to ensure that everyone is well-educated, and received practical training and employment. The school's future depends on it.

Shoot...right now, for CA employment you're probably better off at UCI than below median at Duke or Cornell. UCI is placing students outside of Cali, as well. That's one of the ways it intends to distinguish itself from the other UC schools.

notsureifsrs.jpg

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PDaddy
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 am

Yes...I am srs.

"...wild speculation"? It's fun. I'll concede that nobody really knows what will happen. I am just optimistic. The general point is that nobody outside of T14 should be too quick to write off UCI, especially if they believe they received significant $$$ and they want to work in Cali.

I am probably drinking too much of the UCI/Chemerinsky Kool-Aid, but I believe in the school.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:56 am

blurose wrote:
padawanphil wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:We'll see. Even if they do miraculously start in the 20s (almost no chance since USN values 'rep' so highly), they will drop imo. At best they will level at Davis or Hastings. Why otherwise? Just because Chermerinsky is dean or they are paying off their first classes? NO.


Don't forget that "reputation" is 20% of a school's USNWR ranking (fwiw, USNWR is probably the worst there is), and with a new law school, especially one that sprouts out of a prestigious university like UCI and has a top faculty, reputation is defined by how you hit the ground. People often forget that the reputation of a college/university as a whole factors into the reputation of its graduate schools.

To the extent that the law community is already familiar with the UC system and its quality of education (as well as the stellar performances of UC-Berkeley and UCLA law schools), the fact that UCI is a new law school won't negatively impact its rankings - and it's graduates will receive practical training and good employment upon graduation. UCI will hit the ground running, much like NYU did when it was new. I would not be shocked if UCI manages to rank at #19 or so, but i don't expect it...#25 or so sounds about right. And i do believe the school will sustain it long-term.

UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA


Low blow dude, low blow. I'll always be an Anteater even if I end up being a Colonial too, and UCI's undergrad is ranked 45th while UC Riverside's undergrad is ranked 97th. UCLA is 25th.

By that logic UCI is closer to Stanford than UCR, which is clearly not the case since it's essentially the same school closer to the beach. The hypothetical that 19>20>>>>21 is entirely possible so simply comparing overall ranking, as you did, doesn't really get to the point.

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby humbugger » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 am

PDaddy wrote:I am probably drinking too much of the UCI/Chemerinsky Kool-Aid


/thread


No, seriously.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 am

PDaddy wrote:Yes...I am srs.

"...wild speculation"? It's fun. I'll concede that nobody really knows what will happen. I am just optimistic. The general point is that nobody outside of T14 should be too quick to write off UCI, especially if they believe they received significant $$$ and they want to work in Cali.

I am probably drinking too much of the UCI/Chemerinsky Kool-Aid, but I believe in the school.

Well, I'm not writing it off, but I do think turning down proven commodities for wild cards ITE is a risk not worth taking unless enough $$$ is thrown their way.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:08 am

Well, UCI offered me 90,000 overall, 30k per year that's renewable if I maintain a 2.0. GW has offered me 30k for the first year and I am negotiating to have it be renewed in its entirety. So far only part of it is renewable, the need-based portion of 12k. And there are also factors such as commuting for 2L or 3L if I go to UCI, and significantly lowering my COL.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:14 am

blurose wrote:Well, UCI offered me 90,000 overall, 30k per year that's renewable if I maintain a 2.0. GW has offered me 30k for the first year and I am negotiating to have it be renewed in its entirety. So far only part of it is renewable, the need-based portion of 12k. And there are also factors such as commuting for 2L or 3L if I go to UCI, and significantly lowering my COL.

If I were you I'd probably go with UCI unless you've already got a bunch of student loan debt. Couldn't hurt to try negotiating with them too just to see if they'll increase it. Good luck!

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:18 am

padawanphil wrote:
blurose wrote:Well, UCI offered me 90,000 overall, 30k per year that's renewable if I maintain a 2.0. GW has offered me 30k for the first year and I am negotiating to have it be renewed in its entirety. So far only part of it is renewable, the need-based portion of 12k. And there are also factors such as commuting for 2L or 3L if I go to UCI, and significantly lowering my COL.

If I were you I'd probably go with UCI unless you've already got a bunch of student loan debt. Couldn't hurt to try negotiating with them too just to see if they'll increase it. Good luck!



I've already negotiated with UCI, they've already doubled their original offer. Do you think they'd go higher?

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:24 am

blurose wrote:
padawanphil wrote:
blurose wrote:Well, UCI offered me 90,000 overall, 30k per year that's renewable if I maintain a 2.0. GW has offered me 30k for the first year and I am negotiating to have it be renewed in its entirety. So far only part of it is renewable, the need-based portion of 12k. And there are also factors such as commuting for 2L or 3L if I go to UCI, and significantly lowering my COL.

If I were you I'd probably go with UCI unless you've already got a bunch of student loan debt. Couldn't hurt to try negotiating with them too just to see if they'll increase it. Good luck!



I've already negotiated with UCI, they've already doubled their original offer. Do you think they'd go higher?

If you've got new info to tell them (like that GW scholly) then I'd definitely negotiate. If not, I'd still try because it doesn't cost you anything but the time it takes to write the email. I almost didn't write one to the school I'm going to, but I decided it was worth a try and they kicked me an extra 5k/year guaranteed. Saved myself $15k + interest for about 60 seconds of work. Not bad haha

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:30 am

padawanphil wrote:
blurose wrote:
padawanphil wrote:
blurose wrote:Well, UCI offered me 90,000 overall, 30k per year that's renewable if I maintain a 2.0. GW has offered me 30k for the first year and I am negotiating to have it be renewed in its entirety. So far only part of it is renewable, the need-based portion of 12k. And there are also factors such as commuting for 2L or 3L if I go to UCI, and significantly lowering my COL.

If I were you I'd probably go with UCI unless you've already got a bunch of student loan debt. Couldn't hurt to try negotiating with them too just to see if they'll increase it. Good luck!



I've already negotiated with UCI, they've already doubled their original offer. Do you think they'd go higher?

If you've got new info to tell them (like that GW scholly) then I'd definitely negotiate. If not, I'd still try because it doesn't cost you anything but the time it takes to write the email. I almost didn't write one to the school I'm going to, but I decided it was worth a try and they kicked me an extra 5k/year guaranteed. Saved myself $15k + interest for about 60 seconds of work. Not bad haha


Oh I'm an old hat at negotiating at this point, but UCI's latest offer came way after GW, which is why I'm trying to get GW to match it. UCI doubled their original offer after I told them what GW had given me, and then upped it by renewing it. So yeah, I don't know. I suppose I could try asking for more from UCI again.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:33 am

blurose wrote:
padawanphil wrote:
blurose wrote:I've already negotiated with UCI, they've already doubled their original offer. Do you think they'd go higher?

If you've got new info to tell them (like that GW scholly) then I'd definitely negotiate. If not, I'd still try because it doesn't cost you anything but the time it takes to write the email. I almost didn't write one to the school I'm going to, but I decided it was worth a try and they kicked me an extra 5k/year guaranteed. Saved myself $15k + interest for about 60 seconds of work. Not bad haha


Oh I'm an old hat at negotiating at this point, but UCI's latest offer came way after GW, which is why I'm trying to get GW to match it. UCI doubled their original offer after I told them what GW had given me, and then upped it by renewing it. So yeah, I don't know. I suppose I could try asking for more from UCI again.

Very nice! Well yeah it sounds like you know what you're doing. I guess I'd probably wait til GW responded yes or no then hit up UCI again with or without a new scholly offer to tell them about unless there's a deposit deadline coming up you don't want to mess with.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:45 am

Heard back, GW has "depleted" their funding.

Paul Campos
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:13 am

blurose wrote:Heard back, GW has "depleted" their funding.


I never cease to be amazed by how law schools lie routinely to applicants. There's no "funding" to deplete -- you're being offered a cross-subsidized tuition reduction, not an endowed scholarship. The marginal cost to the school of admitting you is basically zero. There's not even an opportunity cost to them, since they're certainly going to end up taking a smaller class than they would take if they could keep their numbers up. (GW's announcement that they're reducing the size of the incoming class is an attempt to make a virtue of necessity).

This is a straight up game of chicken. They're offering you $54K total, which they won't increase for your 2L and 3L years unless you have the option of threatening to transfer to a higher-ranked school. So UCI is actually offering you far more.

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splitbrain
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:24 pm

blurose wrote:Heard back, GW has "depleted" their funding.

I learned from the financial aid thread to not stop until you hear "no" two times in a row. (Shoutout to that UCLA student :D)

Maybe hold off a week and recontact UCI in the meantime?

Edit: Also, $30k/year at UCI is fantastic - especially off the WL. If tuition were set at $19k/year and you received $0 in aid (equivalent scenario), wouldn't even TLS think that's a good deal?

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby moneybagsphd » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:00 pm

padawanphil wrote:UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA

That's just not true. UCI is much closer to UCLA than to UCR. I agree that using USNWR rankings to argue this point is stupid. But your argument that
padawanphil wrote:By that logic UCI is closer to Stanford than UCR, which is clearly not the case since it's essentially the same school closer to the beach.

is asinine. By the same logic, the difference between UCLA and UCI is marginal compared to the difference between UCLA and Stanford. HTH.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:08 pm

I have close friends who've graduated from those schools and I'll well acquainted with the schools' reputations and caliber. I'd break up the UCs into three tiers: Berkeley and UCLA in the top, Irvine, Santa Barbara, San Diego and Davis in the middle, and Riverside and Merced in the bottom. IMHO, anyway. In any event we're veering off-topic. I care more about which law school to attend than having a pissing contest about our various undergrad institutions.

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splitbrain
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:42 pm

blurose wrote:I have close friends who've graduated from those schools and I'll well acquainted with the schools' reputations and caliber. I'd break up the UCs into three tiers: Berkeley and UCLA in the top, Irvine, Santa Barbara, San Diego and Davis in the middle, and Riverside and Merced in the bottom. IMHO, anyway. In any event we're veering off-topic. I care more about which law school to attend than having a pissing contest about our various undergrad institutions.

Honestly I guess I'd just keep trying to negotiate until you hit your 2nd wall from both and see if one beats the other. Telling them that you're trying to decide between both schools and CoA is your #1 factor by far is fair and truthful.

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:28 pm

splitbrain wrote:
blurose wrote:I have close friends who've graduated from those schools and I'll well acquainted with the schools' reputations and caliber. I'd break up the UCs into three tiers: Berkeley and UCLA in the top, Irvine, Santa Barbara, San Diego and Davis in the middle, and Riverside and Merced in the bottom. IMHO, anyway. In any event we're veering off-topic. I care more about which law school to attend than having a pissing contest about our various undergrad institutions.

Honestly I guess I'd just keep trying to negotiate until you hit your 2nd wall from both and see if one beats the other. Telling them that you're trying to decide between both schools and CoA is your #1 factor by far is fair and truthful.



Missed Santa Cruz.... which is probably somewhere between the middle and the bottom. Much better than Riverside and Merced.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:30 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Missed Santa Cruz.... which is probably somewhere between the middle and the bottom. Much better than Riverside and Merced.

Yup, I knew I was forgetting one. I'd group UCSC with Riverside and Merced, although it's on the higher end of that group.

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:06 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
padawanphil wrote:UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA

That's just not true. UCI is much closer to UCLA than to UCR. I agree that using USNWR rankings to argue this point is stupid. But your argument that
padawanphil wrote:By that logic UCI is closer to Stanford than UCR, which is clearly not the case since it's essentially the same school closer to the beach.

is asinine. By the same logic, the difference between UCLA and UCI is marginal compared to the difference between UCLA and Stanford. HTH.

You either have an over inflated opinion of UCI or you don't know shit about UCR. I'm guessing it's the latter.

jarofsoup
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:54 pm

padawanphil wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
padawanphil wrote:UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA

That's just not true. UCI is much closer to UCLA than to UCR. I agree that using USNWR rankings to argue this point is stupid. But your argument that
padawanphil wrote:By that logic UCI is closer to Stanford than UCR, which is clearly not the case since it's essentially the same school closer to the beach.

is asinine. By the same logic, the difference between UCLA and UCI is marginal compared to the difference between UCLA and Stanford. HTH.

You either have an over inflated opinion of UCI or you don't know shit about UCR. I'm guessing it's the latter.



I went to UCR for two years and people who did not even apply where admitted.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:00 pm

We're really getting off-topic now...




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