GW vs. Irvine

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blurose
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GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:00 pm

I would be equally happy practicing in both SoCal or the DC area, and both schools have offered me almost the same amount of aid, making COA at both the same for me. Where would you choose to attend and why?
Last edited by blurose on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

jarofsoup
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jarofsoup » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:25 pm

blurose wrote:I would be equally happy practicing in both SoCal or the DC area, and both schools have offered me almost the same amount of aid, making COA at both the same for me. Where would you choose to attend and why?



Probably GWU. An alumni network is really an advantage, but Irvine will eventually lock the Orange County market. However, still got UCLA and USC there.

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top30man
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby top30man » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:32 pm

What amount of aid at each? Where are you from?

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:59 pm

top30man wrote:What amount of aid at each? Where are you from?


I'm from LA. $30,000 per year.

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Lawquacious
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:19 pm

blurose wrote:
top30man wrote:What amount of aid at each? Where are you from?


I'm from LA. $30,000 per year.



With those types of offers didn't you get some T14 or T10 acceptances? If so, because it doesn't sound like you know where you want to live/practice I think attending a school with strong national reach (and better overall job prospects) could be in your interest unless you are really debt averse.

Otherwise, I would try to decide how much you think you would like to be in Cali--if that is probably where you want to end up then I would say Irvine, but otherwise I would go to GW.

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splitbrain
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby splitbrain » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:02 pm

I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Lawquacious wrote:I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.


GW reduced their class size this year, aiming for below 450. You're right though, that's still a big difference. I don't know, I suppose I didn't give class size much thought. I suppose a smaller class size would be preferable. I'm concerned about the fact that I attended UCI as an undergrad. Having lived in both Irvine and DC I know I'd enjoy DC more. However, I'm trying to not let superficial considerations cloud my judgment. Minimizing debt and increasing employment prospects are my main concerns.
Last edited by blurose on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

jck4487
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jck4487 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:15 pm

I can't speak for GW, but UCI gives a lot of attention to its students and really works to make sure they achieve their goals. Of course it's because the school's success depends on the future success of its graduates. It's a good time to be at UCI.

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:50 pm

jck4487 wrote:I can't speak for GW, but UCI gives a lot of attention to its students and really works to make sure they achieve their goals. Of course it's because the school's success depends on the future success of its graduates. It's a good time to be at UCI.


Do you think that'll change when they are ranked? IIRC they won't be eligible for accreditation, and therefore ranking, until 2014, right?

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jck4487 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:30 pm

blurose wrote:
jck4487 wrote:I can't speak for GW, but UCI gives a lot of attention to its students and really works to make sure they achieve their goals. Of course it's because the school's success depends on the future success of its graduates. It's a good time to be at UCI.


Do you think that'll change when they are ranked? IIRC they won't be eligible for accreditation, and therefore ranking, until 2014, right?


That sounds right. I know it's after I graduate... can't remember when exactly.

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Lawquacious
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:19 am

splitbrain wrote:I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.



Yeah but UCI has no fucking rank or accreditation.

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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby jck4487 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:25 am

Lawquacious wrote:
splitbrain wrote:I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.



Yeah but UCI has no fucking rank or accreditation.


It's actually provisionally accredited, which has no difference from actual accreditation other than that it will come up for review sooner (usually law schools are reviewed every X number of years, but UCI and other provisionally accredited schools have to be reviewed after 2 or 3 years instead). It's unranked because the US News and World Report methodology doesn't work unless you have a couple years of employment data. Leiter ranked our faculty 9th by scholarly impact. But yes, it is new and that obviously implies more uncertainty. So, while it doesn't have a ranking, it has only helped me find a good job. My general feeling is that all the students feel helped and hindered in no way by the lack of ranking or provisional accreditation. http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... pact.shtml

Obviously I'm going to stick up for UCI -- I like it here and chose it over other schools. :D

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PDaddy
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:30 am

splitbrain wrote:I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.


The personal attention you will receive at UCI (each and every 1L is assigned a mentor), in addition to the aggressive goals the school has set for itself, should make UCI a more attractive option than may appear at first glance. Upon graduation, you will have at least a decent paying job ($80-160K+) unless you just plain suck. UCI has a top-10 faculty and one of the best deans in the country. Chemerinsky could probably run HYS.

I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked. Think long and hard before turning down UCI, because there is a unique vision at play there. I also believe UCI's small class sizes will allow it to place nationally the students from its initial five or six classes. Additionally, you have in-state tuition at UCI, versus owing out-of-pocket for tuition at GWU.
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:40 am

PDaddy wrote:
splitbrain wrote:I'd pick based first and foremost on location and then class size preferences: GW has almost 500 entering next year (I think? It was 490 last year) but UCI will have about 110. They'll be pretty different experiences.


The personal attention you will receive at UCI (each and every 1L is assigned a mentor), in addition to the aggressive goals the school has set for itself, should make UCI a more attractive option than may appear at first glance. Upon graduation, you will have at least a decent paying job ($80-160K+) unless you just plain suck. UCI has a top-10 faculty and one of the best deans in the country. Chemerinsky could probably run HYS.

I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked. Think long and hard before turning down UCI, because there is a unique vision at play there. I also believe UCI's small class sizes will allow it to place nationally students from its initial five or six classes. Additionally, you have in-state tuition at UCI, versus owing out-of-pocket for tuition at GWU.

The in-state tuition rate for UCI is the same as GW. Out of state tuition at UCI is MORE than GW. Which sounds insane unless you remember the budget crisis that is California right now.

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Lawquacious
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:51 am

PDaddy wrote:
I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked.



No. Maybe Davis and Hastings though.

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PDaddy
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:05 am

Lawquacious wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked.


No. Maybe Davis and Hastings though.


Naaa...UCI will eclipse Davis and Hastings, because its GPA/LSAT medians are too high, its class sizes are too small (meaning everyone will be employed), and its scholarly impact will be too strong. Don't assume that because the school is new the law community doesn't know about it or have faith in it. UC-Irvine is already prestigious just as a university. The law faculty is already top-10 and will probably climb.

Ala Duke and UVA, UCI is already bribing students to defer; that should tell you something about the impression students are getting at ASW. They are highly impressed. It'll wind up ranked somewhere between #20 and #30 initially...probably around #25.

blurose wrote:The in-state tuition rate for UCI is the same as GW. Out of state tuition at UCI is MORE than GW. Which sounds insane unless you remember the budget crisis that is California right now.


D.C. COL is expensive, and so is Orange County. It depends on where OP wants to practice, but I wouldn't sleep on UCI. I believe that school's ranking is going to shock a lot of people in 2014. After that, everyone will want to apply there, and its selectivity rating will go through the roof.

GWU Tuition: $44,000

UCI In-State Tuition: $37,000
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:23 am

PDaddy wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked.


No. Maybe Davis and Hastings though.


Naaa...UCI will eclipse Davis and Hastings, because its GPA/LSAT medians are too high, its class sizes are too small (meaning everyone will be employed), and its scholarly impact will be too strong. Don't assume that because the school is new the law community doesn't know about it or have faith in it. UC-Irvine is already prestigious just as a university. The law faculty is already top-10 and will probably climb.

Ala Duke and UVA, UCI is already bribing students to defer; that should tell you something about the impression students are getting at ASW. They are highly impressed. It'll wind up ranked somewhere between #20 and #30 initially...probably around #25


We'll see. Even if they do miraculously start in the 20s (almost no chance since USN values 'rep' so highly), they will drop imo. At best they will level at Davis or Hastings. Why otherwise? Just because Chermerinsky is dean or they are paying off their first classes? NO.
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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:26 am

Lawquacious wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
I believe the school will wind up being a direct peer of USC and UCLA, and similarly ranked.



No. Maybe Davis and Hastings though.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:29 am

I'm only worried about prestige insofar as it helps or hinders in obtaining gainful employment. Sure, I would like to graduate from a prestigious school as much as the next person, but if I am in a position to get a good job after graduation then I don't care if my school is ranked 25th or 30th instead of 20th. At that point you're just splitting hairs. The small class size at UCI and their added incentive to help their graduates so they will be ranked highly later on might mean that I will have better job prospects in the end. And as far as where I want to work, like I said I don't have a strong preference between DC or LA/OC in the short-term. In the long-term I expect to end up back in LA, mainly out of family obligations. But even if I begin my career in DC I think I will be able to eventually transition to LA down the road.
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Lawquacious
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:31 am

blurose wrote: if I am in a position to get a good job after graduation then I don't care if my school is ranked 25th or 30th 49th instead of 20th. .

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:36 am

blurose wrote:I'm only worried about prestige insofar as it helps or hinders in obtaining gainful employment. I graduate from a prestigious school as much as the next person, but if I am in a position to get a good job after graduation then I don't care if my school is ranked 25th or 30th instead of 20th. At that point you're just splitting hairs. The small class size at UCI and their added incentive to help their graduates so they will be ranked highly later on might mean that I will have better job prospects in the end. And as far as where I want to work, like I said I don't have a strong preference between DC or LA/OC in the short-term. In the long-term I expect to end up back in LA, mainly out of family obligations. But even if I begin my career in DC I think I will be able to eventually transition to LA down the road.

I decided against UCI after being in love with it because the uncertainty that would come along with attending it was too high for my liking. Where will it be ranked? How much will it cost in state in 3 years with the state budget crisis? Will the school be able to hold its #'s as their scholarships decrease and they increase their class size while having no alumni base to call in favors to? I mean, I'm never one to bash UCI. I love the feel of the school and what it seems that they're trying to do there, but it's no slam dunk. Absolute best case scenario is it ends up on par with UCLA/USC, and I wish them luck with that, but I think it's far more likely that they end up between Hastings and Pepperdine. You said you want to end up in LA so I'd definitely think hard about UCI if I were you, but I wouldn't put too much faith in their #'s as of now.

blurose
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby blurose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:43 am

Lawquacious wrote:
blurose wrote: if I am in a position to get a good job after graduation then I don't care if my school is ranked 25th or 30th 49th instead of 20th. .


I still stand by that, with your revision. If I get a good job with a decent salary out of school then who gives a rat's ass what the school's ranking is? My lenders aren't going to care!
Last edited by blurose on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:44 am

Lawquacious wrote:We'll see. Even if they do miraculously start in the 20s (almost no chance since USN values 'rep' so highly), they will drop imo. At best they will level at Davis or Hastings. Why otherwise? Just because Chermerinsky is dean or they are paying off their first classes? NO.


Don't forget that "reputation" is, after all, 20% of a school's USNWR ranking (fwiw, USNWR is probably the worst there is), and with a new law school, especially one that sprouts out of a prestigious university like UCI and has a top faculty, reputation is defined by how you hit the ground. People often forget that the reputation of a college/university as a whole factors into the reputation of its graduate schools.

To the extent that the law community is already familiar with the UC system and its quality of education (as well as the stellar performances of UC-Berkeley and UCLA law schools), the fact that UCI is a new law school won't negatively impact its rankings - and it's graduates will receive practical training and good employment upon graduation. UCI will hit the ground running, much like NYU did when it was new. I would not be shocked if UCI manages to rank at #19 or so, but i don't expect it...#25 or so sounds about right. And i do believe the school will sustain it long-term.
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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:45 am

blurose wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
blurose wrote: if I am in a position to get a good job after graduation then I don't care if my school is ranked 25th or 30th 49th instead of 20th. .


I still stand by that, with your revision. If I get a good job with a decent salary out of school then who gives a rat's ass what the school's ranking is? My lenders aren't going to care!

sadly, ranking seems to be correlated with jerbs

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padawanphil
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Re: GW vs. Irvine

Postby padawanphil » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:46 am

PDaddy wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:We'll see. Even if they do miraculously start in the 20s (almost no chance since USN values 'rep' so highly), they will drop imo. At best they will level at Davis or Hastings. Why otherwise? Just because Chermerinsky is dean or they are paying off their first classes? NO.


Don't forget that "reputation" is 20% of a school's USNWR ranking (fwiw, USNWR is probably the worst there is), and with a new law school, especially one that sprouts out of a prestigious university like UCI and has a top faculty, reputation is defined by how you hit the ground. People often forget that the reputation of a college/university as a whole factors into the reputation of its graduate schools.

To the extent that the law community is already familiar with the UC system and its quality of education (as well as the stellar performances of UC-Berkeley and UCLA law schools), the fact that UCI is a new law school won't negatively impact its rankings - and it's graduates will receive practical training and good employment upon graduation. UCI will hit the ground running, much like NYU did when it was new. I would not be shocked if UCI manages to rank at #19 or so, but i don't expect it...#25 or so sounds about right. And i do believe the school will sustain it long-term.

UCI is not on the level of UCLA or Berkeley. It's closer to UCR than UCLA




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