Chicago vs. Duke Forum

[nailglue]

Details:

Duke with $67,500 over 3 years
Chicago with $30,000 over 3 years

I want big law (maybe a clerkship if the opportunity arises, but definitely big law after that), I want to not live in the South when I graduate.

Where should I go?

Edit: added poll

[CanadianWolf]

Chicago.

[ConfidenceMan2]

This one is your call, as the offers are pretty similar. I'd take the money but that's just me.

Have you visited both schools? Do you love Chicago? You mention aversion to the South - have you been to Durham? I like it and all but it's not Chicago.

[kwais]

biglaw + clerkship + no south = Chicago

[CanadianWolf]

Have to wonder a bit about Duke's reputation beyond The South & Mid-Atlantic regions compared to Chicago. If you really prefer to not be in The South, then Chicago--even at sticker price--seems to be the safer bet.

[nailglue]

This one is your call, as the offers are pretty similar. I'd take the money but that's just me.

Have you visited both schools? Do you love Chicago? You mention aversion to the South - have you been to Durham? I like it and all but it's not Chicago.

I've never lived in Chicago, but I loved my other experience living in a huge city. I grew up in East Tennessee, about 5 hours from Durham (never been there though, but I have been to Raleigh). I am so tired of the South and living here, so I know I don't want to make my post-top-law-schools.com anywhere near it.

[ConfidenceMan2]

This one is your call, as the offers are pretty similar. I'd take the money but that's just me.

Have you visited both schools? Do you love Chicago? You mention aversion to the South - have you been to Durham? I like it and all but it's not Chicago.

I've never lived in Chicago, but I loved my other experience living in a huge city. I grew up in East Tennessee, about 5 hours from Durham (never been there though, but I have been to Raleigh). I am so tired of the South and living here, so I know I don't want to make my post-top-law-schools.com anywhere near it.

Sounds like you should head to Hyde Park, then. In spite of what I hear people say about it, particularly Duke students, Durham is definitely the South. Congrats on getting accepted late in the cycle, I'd say things are going your way.

[Kring345]

I feel like that's short sighted. With southern ties and a good scholly at Duke, you seem to be a good spot. I never really understood someone not liking an entire geographic region as large as 'the south.' That's a huge freaking area with a shit ton of towns and cities. It's like not liking the west coast, when Im fairly certain that LA is nothing at all like a suburb of Seattle.

You really dont think you can conceive of a situation where you'd be happy living in Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Dallas, Houston, Little Rock, Raleigh, Charleston, etc...? If you graduate from a t-14 law school with reasonable debt, successfully get a regional biglaw job in the south, get a good looking gf, drive a nice car, be able to afford a house in a cheap region, etc...? There isnt really a unifying theme between 'the south' that should encourage you to avoid it and risk not having a job.

That's my opinion. I could be a dumbass though. Im one of those people who say, "Home is where I hang my hat." Ive lived all over the world and country, and EVERYWHERE has its pros and cons -- even Afghanistan and Iraq had their good parts . And there isnt a single state, let alone quarter-continent, that I would necessarily avoid.

Grass is always greener...

[Doorkeeper]

Everything that you want (biglaw, clerkship, not South) points towards Chicago, but 67k at Duke is a lot of money and Duke can get you the very same things that Chicago can, albeit at a lower rate. It's totally about how much that 67k is worth it to you.

[Kring345]

I just dont think regional preference should be THAT much of a factor. I think Im in the minority, but, the way I see it, happiness is more a function of significant other, family, friends, good job, nice house, etc than it is a function of latitude/longitude. If you love your wife, have a great dog, 3 beautiful children, a fantastic job, and a warm home, Im pretty sure you could live in the middle of the Sahara or the mountains of Afghanistan and be perfectly happy.

So in my eyes it should be what's the most likely to land a solid job with good pay and little debt: duke with decent scholly or chicago at sticker. I feel like at Chicago youre one of the best schools in the mid west and northeast, but youre competing with HYSCPN for New York and Chicago. Duke, from what I can gather, does fantastic in south and only compete with V (plus the good regional schools, of course). But I dont think it's a slam dunk either way.

I dunno. Just trying to help a brotha out.

[AspiringAcademic]

I'd be inclined to say Chicago because of the slightly better job prospects.

More importantly: don't assume Chicago won't offer money. They've been very generous this cycle and you lose nothing by asking.

[FlightoftheEarls]

biglaw + clerkship + no south = Chicago

Everything that you want (biglaw, clerkship, not South) points towards Chicago, but 67k at Duke is a lot of money and Duke can get you the very same things that Chicago can, albeit at a lower rate. It's totally about how much that 67k is worth it to you.

Apart from SCOTUS clerks (which are extremely rare and should never be the basis for a decision), there is very little evidence to suggest that Chicago is better than Duke for clerking. In fact, Duke has tied or exceeded Chicago's Article III clerkship placement for the past three years of available data: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p#p4122116.

CCN is not a relevant term when it comes to Article III clerkship placement. In fact, the only school in the T14 NYU actually beats is Georgetown, and Duke, Virginia, Penn, and Michigan all average better Article III placement than any of CCN.

[nailglue]

I'd be inclined to say Chicago because of the slightly better job prospects.

More importantly: don't assume Chicago won't offer money. They've been very generous this cycle and you lose nothing by asking.

Thanks. I already talked to their admissions and they had me forward them Duke's scholarship offer to aid in their process, so I'm hoping for at least something, but using a hypothetical worse case scenario for now.

Apart from SCOTUS clerks (which are extremely rare and should never be the basis for a decision), there is very little evidence to suggest that Chicago is better than Duke for clerking. In fact, Duke has tied or exceeded Chicago's Article III clerkship placement for the past three years of available data: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p#p4122116.

CCN is not a relevant term when it comes to Article III clerkship placement. In fact, the only school in the T14 NYU actually beats is Georgetown, and Duke, Virginia, Penn, and Michigan all average better Article III placement than any of CCN.

Thank you for the link. I was not aware of this information.

[3ThrowAway99]

Chi caaaaaa gho

[rickgrimes69]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

[nailglue]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

I don't want to take academia completely off the table for my future and down the road (after debts are taken care of), and even though Chicago is no Yale/Harvard, it still looks to produce a much better chance than Duke, by the numbers. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

[rickgrimes69]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

I don't want to take academia completely off the table for my future and down the road (after debts are taken care of), and even though Chicago is no Yale/Harvard, it still looks to produce a much better chance than Duke, by the numbers. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Only in thinking that you have a realistic shot anywhere outside of Y or H. If that's your only reason, realize that academia is extremely unlikely either way, and I personally wouldn't bank $80,000 on being the most special snowflake in my class.

[3ThrowAway99]

.

[3ThrowAway99]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

I don't want to take academia completely off the table for my future and down the road (after debts are taken care of), and even though Chicago is no Yale/Harvard, it still looks to produce a much better chance than Duke, by the numbers. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Only in thinking that you have a realistic shot anywhere outside of Y or H. If that's your only reason, realize that academia is extremely unlikely either way, and I personally wouldn't bank $80,000 on being the most special snowflake in my class.

Wrong. From Chicago he/she has a decent shot at academia.

[Bronck]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

I don't want to take academia completely off the table for my future and down the road (after debts are taken care of), and even though Chicago is no Yale/Harvard, it still looks to produce a much better chance than Duke, by the numbers. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Only in thinking that you have a realistic shot anywhere outside of Y or H. If that's your only reason, realize that academia is extremely unlikely either way, and I personally wouldn't bank $80,000 on being the most special snowflake in my class.

Wrong. From Chicago he/she has a decent shot at academia.

[rickgrimes69]

I'd say Duke, but I'm more risk averse than most. I just don't necessarily see the benefit in paying an extra $80k for very marginal improvements in job prospects.

I don't want to take academia completely off the table for my future and down the road (after debts are taken care of), and even though Chicago is no Yale/Harvard, it still looks to produce a much better chance than Duke, by the numbers. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Only in thinking that you have a realistic shot anywhere outside of Y or H. If that's your only reason, realize that academia is extremely unlikely either way, and I personally wouldn't bank $80,000 on being the most special snowflake in my class.

Wrong. From Chicago he/she has a decent shot at academia.

Chicago: Percentage of 2011 grads employed in Academia, full time, long term: 1.5%

[Doorkeeper]

Every year Chicago sends 4-8 people into academia. They have a placement percantage normally of 30-40% in a single hiring cycle (many people go through multiple hiring cycles). Contrary to TLS wisdom, do you not need to be in the top 1% of your class to go into academia after law school. TLS is great for biglaw info, but a bit less beneficial for academic hiring info.

You definitely do have a shot at academia from Chicago. You just need to know how to position yourself well during and after your law school years.

[DaleCooper]

I've never lived in Chicago, but I loved my other experience living in a huge city. I grew up in East Tennessee, about 5 hours from Durham (never been there though, but I have been to Raleigh). I am so tired of the South and living here, so I know I don't want to make my post-top-law-schools.com anywhere near it.

East Tennessee and the Triangle have absolutely nothing to do with each other. As a general rule, the reasons people hate growing up in the rural South have almost zero relevance to life in the Triangle. Also, the easiest placement is probably going to be NYC, not Raleigh or Birmingham or whatever. Worrying about getting stuck in the South because you went to Duke is like worrying you're going to get stuck in Detroit because you went to Michigan. It really shouldn't be a concern.

But all that said, and even though I still think you're making a huge mistake by not actually visiting both schools, it sounds like Chicago is where you really want to be even if you can't articulate why on an internet forum. So go there.

[dudeimsocool]

bulls v blue devils

[A-Cow-Demia]

CCN is not a relevant term when it comes to Article III clerkship placement. In fact, the only school in the T14 NYU actually beats is Georgetown, and Duke, Virginia, Penn, and Michigan all average better Article III placement than any of CCN.

But there are two problems with your data:

First, they don't distinguish COA clerks from DCt clerks. For whatever reason, the mentality of Chicago students is "COA or bust." Many qualified students simply don't apply for DCt clerkships. Unlike at most t14—as far as I know—the majority of A3 clerks from Chicago are COA clerks. (See http://www.law.uchicago.edu/students/ca ... clerkships) So the percentages don't accurately represent the ease of getting an A3 clerkship.

Second, the US News numbers don't count alumni clerks—or do they? This likely hurts some schools more than others and thus throws off the numbers.

I'm not saying people should ignore the US News numbers. I'm just saying they are far from perfect: you can't look at them and say, "yep, Duke and Virginia are better at placing students in A3 clerkships."

As for academia, Chicago has a clear edge: http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml.