Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

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Fordham v. Northwestern

Fordham
21
26%
Northwestern
61
74%
 
Total votes: 82

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bk1
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:38 pm

Lawquacious wrote:So worst case scenario OP takes some low paying PI job out of school and all the loans get paid back by the school.

wut

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Icculus
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Icculus » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
sunynp wrote:I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.



To be fair, while splitters will have biases to fight, that doesn't mean that someone in your position doesn't also have their own biases the opposite way.

Are you really claiming that very few within the T14 will be able to repay 300k?


Even with close to $300K in loans, if you land a biglaw job you'll be able to pay it off, probably in fewer than ten years if you're willing to put bonuses/raises/etc. to them and you're willing to forego the high life for a few years. Doing the math the other day it became clear that after rent, taxes, and loans the take home amount is not a ton, but it's probably still more than I had as a teacher and the future earning potential is infinitely more than a non biglaw job is going to give you. Like everything else in life it's a gamble but I think the extra debt in this situation is worth the double in likelihood of landing a biglaw job. Plus as IAFG pointed out before somewhere a huge loan payent on a huge salary is still easier to handle than a modest loan payment on a modest salary.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:52 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:So worst case scenario OP takes some low paying PI job out of school and all the loans get paid back by the school.

wut



Dude, read their policy, they pay 100% plus of loans if you have a low paying qualifying PI job.

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 pm

sunynp wrote:You may disagree but it isn't silly. I'm perfectly happy to say that the 25% risk of underemployment or a 53.3% chance at a firm of 101 lawyers is not worth $300,000 of debt.


I didn't say the whole discussion is silly. I said that at a certain level the discussion is silly. E.g. trying to draw clear lines between CCN being worth it at sticker but Michigan or GULC not being worth it.

sunynp wrote:Just look at some of the posts by people who have struck out or were no offered. What will you do in their position? Did you see the people from top schools who now think going to law school was a terrible mistake?


I'm a C/O 2012 grad, and about 1/4 of my friends are in that position. So I'm quite aware of how they feel. A lot of them think that going to law school was a terrible decision. On the other hand the other 3/4 got the kind of job they wanted and are reasonably content.

sunyp wrote:Once you have that much non-dischargable debt it will affect virtually every major decision you make. What you can afford to do, where you live and what job you have to have ( and keep for 10 year) will be determined by the payment you have to make.


Sure, the debt limits what you can do. But your career also affects "virtually every major decision you make." For most people in the US, Life = Work. The kinds of people who end up in law school were planning on grinding for the next 30 years anyway.

Your problem is that you're fixating on the down side and ignoring any upside. The average mid-career salary out of Harvard undergrad is $115k. I think the majority of people out of NU are going to come out ahead of that even after accounting for student loans. I know more people working at a V10 than are unemployed. Statistically, more people will make partner at an Am Law 200 firm than the number of people who graduated unemployed. Lots of people will go into state/government/PI jobs after 3 years where IBR will pay off their remaining loans. Lots of people will grind out 4-5 years to pay down their debt then head to solid in-house jobs.

If you think that after you leave big law you'll be making the same amount of money as you would have with just your BA, then it is indeed unreasonable to pay sticker at a T14. Mathematical fact. You should instead take full-ride at a T100 or skip law school entirely. But based on all of the data I've looked it, that's not a reasonable assumption.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:So worst case scenario OP takes some low paying PI job out of school and all the loans get paid back by the school.

wut

Dude, read their policy, they pay 100% plus of loans if you have a low paying qualifying PI job.

I really hope you're trolling.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:09 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:So worst case scenario OP takes some low paying PI job out of school and all the loans get paid back by the school.

wut

Dude, read their policy, they pay 100% plus of loans if you have a low paying qualifying PI job.

I really hope you're trolling.



No not trolling. My understanding is that with a low qualifying income coming out of NU an individual's loans will be very manageable using LRAP/IBR--but the 100% comment is a misunderstanding on my part related to how exactly the LRAP/IBR interface works (that comment was partly derived from the OP in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=119817).

My main point is that PI work out of NU should be both obtainable and sustainable using LRAP/IBR, even with 300k out of the gate. I think maybe I had an inflated idea of how good the NU LRAP program is because I know that my school will pay up to half your loans back through LRAP, and my understanding is that NU's LRAP is better than here. But admittedly finance stuff isn't my strong point, so seriously please do share if you have informative comments.

Getting a qualifying (e.g. 40k or 50k) PI attorney position should not be difficult out of NU with a bit of footwork. Not saying this is ideal (that's why I said worst case scenario--although it is manageable the person is still straddled with debt until it is paid off), but seriously if this is worst case out of NU then a lot of the arguments ITT fall apart.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:20 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Getting a qualifying (e.g. 40k or 50k) PI attorney position should not be difficult out of NU with a bit of footwork. Not saying this is ideal (that's why I said worst case scenario--although it is manageable the person is still straddled with debt until it is paid off), but seriously if this is worst case out of NU then a lot of the arguments ITT fall apart.


NU's LRAP is very good, but getting a qualifying PI/government position is extremely difficult.

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sunynp
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:34 pm

My understanding from these forums is that it isn't easy to get an LRAP job because the competition is high. If it was so easy, people wouldn't be unemployed or working for the school or working for small firms.( Also, you have to get the job after you graduate or finish a clerkship. If you have another job and leave it or get fired, you have to rely on IBR, there is no LRAP safety net.)

It would be interesting to see schools report exactly how many students they are supporting on LRAP. I bet the number is small compared to the size of the graduating class.

Rayiner may be right that I am fixating on the downside. That is because I know people who lost their biglaw jobs in the crash and basically have had their life ruined by debt. Having seen this has affected my outlook. The down side is pretty brutal. For the 25% of people at your school who don't have jobs, they may see where I am coming from.

I do get the appeal of the upside. I do understand that people want to be lawyers and have a professional career. And NU is certainly one of the best schools to take that risk of getting the upside. Personally, I wouldn't gamble $300,000 on these odds. That is just way too much money for me. But there are plenty of gamblers (or risk takers) here who disagree with me.

Good luck OP. I hope it all works out for you.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Ruxin1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:36 pm

Obviously this is a stupid hypo because so dependent on school and is a generalization: but what is the dollar amount where you are not completely fucked at a T14 if you miss biglaw - 75k/100k/150k?

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby dingbat » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:42 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:Obviously this is a stupid hypo because so dependent on school and is a generalization: but what is the dollar amount where you are not completely fucked at a T14 if you miss biglaw - 75k/100k/150k?

Assuming that missing out biglaw, but still getting a decent job (and targeting major markets), means you'll be making $50-$75, depending on the market and other circumstances. $100k is probably an absolute maximum, although $75k would be better (especially if you want to live in Manhattan)

If you are looking at smaller markets (smaller salaries), anything over $50k is risky

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Ruxin1
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Ruxin1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:56 pm

dingbat wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:Obviously this is a stupid hypo because so dependent on school and is a generalization: but what is the dollar amount where you are not completely fucked at a T14 if you miss biglaw - 75k/100k/150k?

Assuming that missing out biglaw, but still getting a decent job (and targeting major markets), means you'll be making $50-$75, depending on the market and other circumstances. $100k is probably an absolute maximum, although $75k would be better (especially if you want to live in Manhattan)

If you are looking at smaller markets (smaller salaries), anything over $50k is risky


Thanks 100 is what I was thinking as well, thanks

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bk1
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:07 pm

Lawquacious wrote:My main point is that PI work out of NU should be both obtainable


This is my problem. It's just not that easy.

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JCFindley
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby JCFindley » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:32 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:This all depends on how debt averse you are. If you're Biglaw or bust, NU obviously.

If you're very debt averse, Fordham at ~100k is manageable without BigLaw.

NU at 200+ has the potential cripple you for the rest of your life without BigLaw.

NU gives you a solid 25% higher chance at BigLaw, however, you have a 50% chance of being crippled for life. Personally I would never take the chance.

I don't like either of these choices but if I was dead set on Law School I would go with Fordham and network my ass off in NYC rather than banking on BigLaw.


Wonderful debate and all, but why the necro from mid June?

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iMisto
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby iMisto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:28 am

JCFindley wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:This all depends on how debt averse you are. If you're Biglaw or bust, NU obviously.

If you're very debt averse, Fordham at ~100k is manageable without BigLaw.

NU at 200+ has the potential cripple you for the rest of your life without BigLaw.

NU gives you a solid 25% higher chance at BigLaw, however, you have a 50% chance of being crippled for life. Personally I would never take the chance.

I don't like either of these choices but if I was dead set on Law School I would go with Fordham and network my ass off in NYC rather than banking on BigLaw.


Wonderful debate and all, but why the necro from mid June?


I don't know... but it was very informative. Just read every post. :shock:

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:48 pm

JCFindley wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:This all depends on how debt averse you are. If you're Biglaw or bust, NU obviously.

If you're very debt averse, Fordham at ~100k is manageable without BigLaw.

NU at 200+ has the potential cripple you for the rest of your life without BigLaw.

NU gives you a solid 25% higher chance at BigLaw, however, you have a 50% chance of being crippled for life. Personally I would never take the chance.

I don't like either of these choices but if I was dead set on Law School I would go with Fordham and network my ass off in NYC rather than banking on BigLaw.


Wonderful debate and all, but why the necro from mid June?



lmao, I just sort of happened upon this thread, didn't notice the date.

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sunynp
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby sunynp » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:27 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
JCFindley wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:This all depends on how debt averse you are. If you're Biglaw or bust, NU obviously.

If you're very debt averse, Fordham at ~100k is manageable without BigLaw.

NU at 200+ has the potential cripple you for the rest of your life without BigLaw.

NU gives you a solid 25% higher chance at BigLaw, however, you have a 50% chance of being crippled for life. Personally I would never take the chance.

I don't like either of these choices but if I was dead set on Law School I would go with Fordham and network my ass off in NYC rather than banking on BigLaw.


Wonderful debate and all, but why the necro from mid June?



lmao, I just sort of happened upon this thread, didn't notice the date.


Lol at myself. I thought this was a good discussion too.




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