Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

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Fordham v. Northwestern

Fordham
21
26%
Northwestern
61
74%
 
Total votes: 82

sshaqsb
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Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby sshaqsb » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:29 pm

Hey Guys,

I've been wrestling with this for a few weeks now so I thought I'd ask here as well. I have a 90k scholarship to Fordham vs. sticker at Northwestern. I'm from NY and would like to stay here. From what I have noticed, I find that most students prefer NU but the judgment from those who make employment decisions does not heavily favor one over the other. I've spoken to several partners I know at top 50 firms and they have advised me that the difference between NU and Fordham is not that stark in the NYC legal market. I wanted to check this info so I went through the top 50 firms (minus like 7 UK firms because their search functions were not very efficient) and found that Fordham alums as associates and partners in NYC locations of these firms vastly outnumbered NU alums (close to a 6:1 ratio). I realize that some of this may be self selection and I did notice NU vastly outnumbered Fordham in Chicago where they placed most of their alums (limited to top 50). I wondering if the extra money is worth it for someone coming back to NY and if you think so, why? I was hoping for some statistics to back up advice since I think the decision is to great to simply role the dice.

Appreciate the help everyone.

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:18 pm

There are two things that distort such comparisons. First, Fordham graduates 50% more students. Second, relatively few NU students are seriously interested in NYC, while everyone at Fordham wants NYC. There was a spike in NYC interest for NU C/O 2012, because the Chicago market was very rough, but out of the people I know in NU C/O 2013, many of whom had NYC offers, nobody went to NYC. Indeed, several people I know in C/O 2012 that did their 2L SA with top NYC firms chose not to take their permanent offers and instead go to a Chicago firm after graduation.

I think Fordham does have some extra pull in NYC relative to the other T30 schools, but I think NYC firms still treat a median NU student like a top 1/4 Fordham student, or a top 1/4 NU student like a top 5-10% Fordham student for the purposes of hiring. It's up to you to decide whether that is worth $90k.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:38 pm

What are Northwestern's overall class rank biglaw numbers? I think that it's normally so long as you're around median that you should be ok going into OCI for Chicago/NYC, right?

I ask because Fordham and Northwestern should both be fine for NYC biglaw if you're in the top 25%, but you chances at biglaw from Fordham really down in NYC if you're not in the top 25-33% or so. I assume Northwestern has a much wider class rank to work with, but is there any reason it wouldn't be as elastic for NYC biglaw?

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:57 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:What are Northwestern's overall class rank biglaw numbers? I think that it's normally so long as you're around median that you should be ok going into OCI for Chicago/NYC, right?

I ask because Fordham and Northwestern should both be fine for NYC biglaw if you're in the top 25%, but you chances at biglaw from Fordham really down in NYC if you're not in the top 25-33% or so. I assume Northwestern has a much wider class rank to work with, but is there any reason it wouldn't be as elastic for NYC biglaw?


According to my metrics (defining big law as a 100+ attorney firm), NU placed 61% into big law and federal clerkships and Fordham placed 28%: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415.

I don't think class-rank wise NYC firms are any more selective at NU than Chicago firms. Indeed, I think Chicago can be a bit more selective because of the demand for Chicago firms at NU.

abc12345675
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:59 pm

Northwestern. Submit your deposit and don't look back.

attractive_NUisance
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby attractive_NUisance » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:07 pm

At Northwestern you will have much better chances of working for a large law firm in NYC regardless of where your grades end up.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:What are Northwestern's overall class rank biglaw numbers? I think that it's normally so long as you're around median that you should be ok going into OCI for Chicago/NYC, right?

I ask because Fordham and Northwestern should both be fine for NYC biglaw if you're in the top 25%, but you chances at biglaw from Fordham really down in NYC if you're not in the top 25-33% or so. I assume Northwestern has a much wider class rank to work with, but is there any reason it wouldn't be as elastic for NYC biglaw?


According to my metrics (defining big law as a 100+ attorney firm), NU placed 61% into big law and federal clerkships and Fordham placed 28%: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415.

I don't think class-rank wise NYC firms are any more selective at NU than Chicago firms. Indeed, I think Chicago can be a bit more selective because of the demand for Chicago firms at NU.

If you can get NYC biglaw from anywhere around median from Northwestern, it's definitely the better choice here. Fordham basically only puts the top 30% into NYC biglaw. That's a big difference, imo.

Can you leverage some $$ out of Northwestern?

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Robespierre » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:46 pm

OP, would you have to borrow the whole cost of attendance at NU (almost 250K inlcuding interest accruing while you're in school)?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:56 pm

Have you asked Fordham for more money based on your Northwestern acceptance ?

Also, have you calculated the total COA for each law school ?

Paul Campos
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:59 pm

Robespierre wrote:OP, would you have to borrow the whole cost of attendance at NU (almost 250K inlcuding interest accruing while you're in school)?


Actually $287K. --LinkRemoved--

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:05 pm

OP: Don't go into debt for $287,000 for any law school outside of the top 3 or 4. Top 3 is okay not only due to superior placement, but also because you wouldn't have qualified for financial aid which indicates a substantial net worth or, at least, the ability to fund three years of law school.

Regardless, you're still facing about $195,000 of debt (including accrued interest) 6 months after graduation from Fordham after receiving $30,000 per year in scholarship money if you need to borrow the entire cost of attendance.

OP: Both options may be prohibitively expensive if you also have a substantial amount of undergraduate student loans.

sshaqsb
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby sshaqsb » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:02 pm

Yeah I think the advice I was getting from my contacts was because they thought I would be in the top 25% regardless. Of course this is TLS so I expect that everyone is aiming for top 10%.

CanadianWolf wrote:Regardless, you're still facing about $195,000 of debt (including accrued interest) 6 months after graduation from Fordham after receiving $30,000 per year in scholarship money if you need to borrow the entire cost of attendance.

OP: Both options may be prohibitively expensive if you also have a substantial amount of undergraduate student loans.


If I go to Fordham I would save on housing cost (I live close to the city), so my total debt would be somewhere around 110k at graduation. Don't have a lot of UG loans, thankfully scholarships and FA helped be get through with only a few thousand in debt. NU COA that was posted earlier is pretty accurate.

I don't know if I should be careful leveraging for more money since I already did that. However, I did that quite some time ago, before my NU acceptance.

Rayiner: I'm not worried that NYC firms would be more selective at NU, I'm just worried that there won't be many present at OCI. Can you give me any info on that?

Also, thanks for the responses guys.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:14 pm

NU is great. But knowing what I now know about the importance of grades in hiring, particularly with NU not being one of the NYC focused top 14 schools, I would go to Fordham for 90K. Sticker at NU is too much for someone interested in NYC with a 90K scholly at Fordham. If you had said sticker NYU or even Penn I might have said something different--but not NU. If you end up bottom 1/3 at NU (or even below the mean) you will have a hell of a time getting a NYC firm job and you will be loaded with debt (isn't NU's tuition in the low 50s?)

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Lawquacious
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:36 pm

Was going to say NU, but if set on NYC maybe Fordham at 90k off is better for you.

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:41 pm

$90k is not a lot of money. Taking 28% biglaw+clerkship at Fordham versus 61% at NU basically values getting big law versus not getting it at only $270k over the course of a whole career. That's ridiculous.
Last edited by rayiner on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:42 pm

rayiner wrote:$90k is not a lot of money. It basically values getting big law versus not getting it at only $270k over the course of a whole career. That's ridiculous.


How many people get biglaw from NU with bottom 1/3 grades?

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:46 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:$90k is not a lot of money. It basically values getting big law versus not getting it at only $270k over the course of a whole career. That's ridiculous.


How many people get biglaw from NU with bottom 1/3 grades?


You have a 1/3 chance of being bottom 1/3 at NU. You have a 2/3 chance of being bottom 2/3 at Fordham. Both will have a rough time getting big law, and the latter will only have $90k less debt (still well over $150k).

ahnhub
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby ahnhub » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:04 am

You asked for statistics so:

c/o 2010
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

c/o 2011

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
http://law.fordham.edu/assets/CareerPla ... t_9mos.pdf

It's a lot of information, takes time to digest it all. It does seem NU students who don't land 160K biglaw generally have better results than Fordham students in the same situation, so that should be part of your decision process.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby dingbat » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:02 am

If I read this correctly, you're talking about a $177k difference between the two schools.
Well, do you think that $177k extra is worth increasing your chances from 1/3 to 2/3 for biglaw?
put simply:
$110k = 1/3 chance
$287k = 2/3 chance

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:39 am

dingbat wrote:If I read this correctly, you're talking about a $177k difference between the two schools.
Well, do you think that $177k extra is worth increasing your chances from 1/3 to 2/3 for biglaw?
put simply:
$110k = 1/3 chance
$287k = 2/3 chance


I took the difference as being $90k. I.e. $290k versus $200k.

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Samara
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby Samara » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:01 am

rayiner wrote:
dingbat wrote:If I read this correctly, you're talking about a $177k difference between the two schools.
Well, do you think that $177k extra is worth increasing your chances from 1/3 to 2/3 for biglaw?
put simply:
$110k = 1/3 chance
$287k = 2/3 chance


I took the difference as being $90k. I.e. $290k versus $200k.

OP says that they will live at home if they go to Fordham to reduce COA. OP claims $110k. I don't feel like running the numbers, but that seems like a bit of an overcorrection for living at home.

For me, the rough cutoff point for justifying a T30 like Fordham over a school like NU is $100k. I feel like that is about the maximum that could be handled in a non-biglaw or LRAP situation. Thus, anything over that I think you have to maximize your biglaw chances. And I don't think it matters that OP is targeting NYC, because that's the only market where Fordham makes any sense.

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Don't go into debt for $287,000 for any law school outside of the top 3 or 4.

:roll:

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby rayiner » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:08 am

I missed the part about living at home. That does increase the advantage to Fordham.

I mean here is the bottom line OP. Would you rather be in big law, making a $3,200/month loan payment (eek!) or in small law making a $1400/month loan payment (eek!)? Because that is your expected outcome from NU and Fordham, respectively.

Maybe the answer is retake and get some scholarship at NU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:14 am

If I understand correctly, OP potentially would be facing $70,000 of debt for Fordham versus $287,000 for Northwestern. Additionally, OP has not yet sought additional scholarship money from Fordham based on his later acceptance to NU. If accurate, then a $217,000 difference makes the better choice Fordham.

P.S. @Samara: Guess that you're paying full sticker price at Northwestern & that your :roll: suggests that misery loves company. :D
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

woeisme
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby woeisme » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:16 am

Did you get into Cornell?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:22 am

Am I correct in understanding that OP will be paying only about $20,000 per year (plus interest if this amount is borrowed) for Fordham after the $30,000 per year scholarship & due to no need to pay living expenses since OP can live at home ? Asking because I do not understand how OP assumes $110,000 of debt for Fordham.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.




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