Unsure where to apply.

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pballer
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby pballer » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:36 am

Regardless of whether this is a flame, I love OPs inability to pay for a 2nd LSAT, but willingness to pay sticker at a T4. This is either genius trolling or the saddest thing I've ever heard.

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Nova
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Nova » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:09 pm

OP and TTTT seem to be a match made in heaven.

TCR is Work, earn money, study, and retake.
Last edited by Nova on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:20 pm

Nova Law or Barry Law would probably take you. And Florida has pretty strong job prospects in the near future. Don't listen to the naysayers. They're all just elitist trolls who are mad because they don't have your strong softs. I went to Barry and got a 4.0 because I worked really hard. I got a sweet internship at a law firm this summer. You can do it too. Yeah I mean I'll be like $180k in debt when I get out, but being a lawyer is worth it.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Your LSAT score is unnacceptable to go to law school. You have strong softs (work experience, contacts in the area, etc.), but that won't mean a thing if that LSAT isn't higher. Almost all law schools go primarily from LSAT score. I'm sure some seedy for-profit school that'll cost you $20,000 a semester would take that score, but you really don't want to do that.

You need to devote the appropriate amount of time to studying for the LSAT. I know it's tough, but if you can't succesfully do this now, do you want to screw over your family and your life by going to a low-ranking, horrible law school with no money? You will be in a worse position in three years than you are now, because you did not put in the time this test requires.

If you cannot find the time to properly study for this test, I would advise you to give up on becoming a lawyer. I'm sorry if this sounds cruel, but it will save you and your children a lot of pain. Do not go if you cannot put this time in now. Your job prospects and finances will suffer horribly.

Need proof? Here's some figures for you:
At New England Law (example in your area), tuition is $39,990/year. The LSAT 25% range is 151, and the 75% is 154. The GPA range is 2.95-3.49 (25%-75%). You are a splitter at this school (GPA at 75%, LSAT at less than 25%). If you get in, you will likely not get a scholarship, and if you do, it will be with conditions. Assuming you do not get a scholarship, you will face $40,000/year in tuition alone in student loans. Federal student loans will cover half of that (federal max for unsubsidized stafford is $22,000). You will most likely be able to get $18,000/year in Grad PLUS loans (they do run a credit check, btw). You might be able to wheedle out financial need-based aid, but I highly doubt it from a for-profit university. The rest will have to be private. I don't know if you've ever dealt with private loan companies before, but trust me. You do not want to have to do this. The rates are horrible, and they are nasty people.

By the end of three years, you will have taken out $120,000 in student loans simply to pay for tuition. In addition, you will have living expenses, book costs, and bar course tuition. I don't know your exact cost of living situation, since you have merely said you have a family. I'll be conservative and say that you have $20,000/year in living expenses (a bit below the poverty line, but doable). Add on $2,000/year on books.

You are now looking at $190,000 in student loan debt. These will accrue interest while you are in school. You might be able to qualify for IBR plans, but it does not change the fact that this debt will cripple your financial abilities for decades. If you get a job as a lawyer with a fat paycheck (aim for top 10% of your class, hustle your ass off), you might get this paid off in a reasonable amount of time. You also might end up having to hang out your own shingle (go solo) or go back to engineering. Either way your debt will remain.

Now let's compare this with a good score, say, 164 or so. Let's say you get into a reasonable state school (Gonna use University of South Carolina, because I know it well), where your residential tuition is $20,000 a year. In addition, you now have a $10,000/year scholarship. Let's see what this does to the numbers. Instead of $120,000 in tuition, you now owe $30,000. Assuming (once again) $20,000/year living expenses, and about $2,000 in books/bar you will owe approximately $100,000 in student loans. In addition, your chances at getting a job will be dramatically improved by your school.

The difference between getting a good score on the LSAT and a bad one is in my two scenarios is $90,000.

Do you really think that you would be better off going to law school with that score? Can you look your family in the face and tell them that you'd rather spend $90,000 more on a weaker future because you didn't have time to learn the LSAT?

Edit: edited in Grad PLUS loan info.
Last edited by Scotusnerd on Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:49 pm

Scotusnerd wrote:Federal student loans will cover half of that (federal max for unsubsidized stafford is $22,000). You might be able to wheedle out financial need-based aid, but I highly doubt it from a for-profit university. The rest will have to be private. I don't know if you've ever dealt with private loan companies before, but trust me. You do not want to have to do this. The rates are horrible, and they are nasty people.
What?

How have you been on this forum this long and not discovered Federal Grad Plus loans?

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:54 pm

Ok, fine, Grad Plus. Yeah, I forgot about that.

It doesn't matter at the end of the day. You still owe other people an arm and a leg, and they WILL fuck you over.

Doesn't matter if it's Uncle Sam or Aunt Sallie Mae, they still want their money.

Cdeezz0101
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Cdeezz0101 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:34 pm

This thread has been very helpful.

I have learned that:
Law school costs money.
loans accumulate interest.
and T4 schools have lower employment prospects than tier 1s.

Anyone want to give me any valuable advice ffs? As it stands now looking to apply to RW and commute from home, transfer to UCONN for 2L.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:37 pm

Cdeezz0101 wrote:This thread has been very helpful.

I have learned that:
Law school costs money.
loans accumulate interest.
and T4 schools have lower employment prospects than tier 1s.

Anyone want to give me any valuable advice ffs? As it stands now looking to apply to RW and commute from home, transfer to UCONN for 2L.
Your inability to absorb the extremely valuable advice in this thread goes a long way towards explaining that 149.

3.5% of Roger Williams 2010 graduates made $52,500 or more.

rad lulz
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:38 pm

Cdeezz0101 wrote:This thread has been very helpful.

I have learned that:
Law school costs money.
loans accumulate interest.
and T4 schools have lower employment prospects than tier 1s.

Anyone want to give me any valuable advice ffs? As it stands now looking to apply to RW and commute from home, transfer to UCONN for 2L.

I'm serious about this Nova or Barry thing. Don't listen to the naysayers.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:39 pm

I still don't think you realize that spending a couple hundred bucks on a retake could save you up to $100,000.
It is literally insane for you not to retake.

Cdeezz0101
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Cdeezz0101 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:39 pm

Which is why i plan on transferring at the completion of the first year. The curriculum offered at RW is the same at every other law school in the United States, transferring will be no problem if I maintain a respectable GPA / class rank.

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dowu
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby dowu » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:41 pm

:shock: :shock:
Last edited by dowu on Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:41 pm

JCFindley wrote:
Cdeezz0101 wrote:
As stated above, I am working at a paid internship currently. Between car payments, cell phone bills, car insurance, rent and living expenses it can be rough forking over even 160 dollars to a test I would be taking in October. October being a time where i work 25-30 hours a week with a full course load (of engineering not pussy business/poly sci credits) and extracurricular activities.

However, it appears I am hitting diminishing returns here so I will seek out another resource for advice.

Thanks anyhow.


The Law School Admission Council categorizes test-takers into 162 majors. Seeing many of those as sub-disciplines of major fields, Nieswiadomy groups them into 29 categories. Of those 29, he found that the top five majors and their average test scores were:

1. Physics/math, 160.0
2. Economics, 157.4
3. Philosophy/theology, 157.4
4. International relations, 156.5
5. Engineering, 156.2

The five lowest-scoring majors were:

25. Education, 149.4
26. Business administration, 149.1
27. Health professions, 148.4
28. Prelaw, 148.3
29. Criminal justice, 146.0

There are your top and bottom scoring UG majors for the LSAT.... You are considerably below other engineers that are also not taking the courses you described above.... Frankly, that language makes it sound like a flame to me but if not......

Look, this test dictates your school.... Your school dictates your job prospects. Your job prospects dictate your future.....

I don't care if you are eating Ramen Noodles three times a day as that is all you can afford you need to cut back to 2 meals a day or apply for food stamps to save money.... Switch car insurance companies and save an average of 500 bucks (according to every ad on TV anyway.) Sell your car and rent a Moped... Take you TV and PS3 to a pawn shop.... Sell Plasma.... Show up at Home Depot and do a little day labor on your day off.....

Seriously, it is THAT important...... If you don't have money for a study course do it on your own. The local library will have all the study guides.... There are ways to do it on the cheap.

Heck, join the military for four years, they LOVE engineers.... While your softs are not bad for a KJD not a one of them will help you one bit to getting into LS; four years of service will and it pays well as an O and you will have the GI Bill that will pay for 100% of LS.....

The point being there ARE ways to pay for things that you need but there may be no way to pay off the debt you incur in a TTTT and come out without a job and then have to explain to the engineering firms why you went to LS and now changed your mind and want to be an Engineer again.... With an extra 200K of debt mind you....

There are reasons to go to a TTTT school that will take a non-URM 149.... Your employer is paying for it and you already have a guaranteed job upon graduation.. (Only one I can think of at the moment but I am sure there are more...) YOU are not in such a situation though. Retesting is a pain but WAY easier than being in the top 1% of your class which is what you will need to do in order to transfer to a good school from a TTTT.....

to add to this, OP, I will literally send you my prep materials if you promise to retake.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:41 pm

Cdeezz0101 wrote:Which is why i plan on transferring at the completion of the first year. The curriculum offered at RW is the same at every other law school in the United States, transferring will be no problem if I maintain a respectable GPA / class rank.

What happens if you don't? You are competing against people who have the same gpa and LSAT as yourself, possibly higher.

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dowu
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby dowu » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:42 pm

What about the fee waiver? If you're so broke, as you say, they should be willing to give you a fee waiver, which would give you 2 more shots at the LSAT, totally free.


This has to be a troll.

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Nova
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Nova » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:43 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:I still don't think you realize that spending a couple hundred bucks on a retake could save you up to $100,000.
It is literally insane for you not to retake.

+1

nmop_apisdn wrote:What TLS fails to see is that this happens all of the time - people are constantly making bad decisions and not taking the advice they don't want to hear.

+1

Cdeezz0101 wrote:Which is why i plan on transferring at the completion of the first year. The curriculum offered at RW is the same at every other law school in the United States, transferring will be no problem if I maintain a respectable GPA / class rank.


You cant break median on the LSAT, but you plan to be near the top of your class after 1L? good one.

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JCFindley
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby JCFindley » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:25 pm

While you can tell someone that free climbing Half Dome without a safety rope is an insane risk you can't keep them from doing it.....

Besides, I have heard of some guy that did it and lived so sure, why not......

Good luck on getting the transfer to UConn which does not have the best job prospects in and of itself......

Go Huskies..... (At least you will have Div 1 sports and an active student life if you are in fact high enough to transfer.....)


rad lulz wrote:Nova Law or Barry Law would probably take you. And Florida has pretty strong job prospects in the near future. Don't listen to the naysayers. They're all just elitist trolls who are mad because they don't have your strong softs. I went to Barry and got a 4.0 because I worked really hard. I got a sweet internship at a law firm this summer. You can do it too. Yeah I mean I'll be like $180k in debt when I get out, but being a lawyer is worth it.


Rad, glad you have finally seen the light......

JournalismToLaw
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby JournalismToLaw » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:27 pm

Cdeezz0101 wrote:Which is why i plan on transferring at the completion of the first year. The curriculum offered at RW is the same at every other law school in the United States, transferring will be no problem if I maintain a respectable GPA / class rank.


Even if you pull off transferring, you still won't get any scholarship $$ at either school. Spending the money to retake and putting in the prep time should get you $$, which will make such a huge difference on your future that you'd be crazy not to do it.

I doubt this is legit. Gotta be a flame.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:33 pm

uconn is worth going to at sticker.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:57 pm

Cdeezz0101 wrote:This thread has been very helpful.

I have learned that:
Law school costs money.
loans accumulate interest.
and T4 schools have lower employment prospects than tier 1s.

Anyone want to give me any valuable advice ffs? As it stands now looking to apply to RW and commute from home, transfer to UCONN for 2L.


Oh I've given you some valuable advice.

You keep on truckin', friend. I'll see you in school. I look forward to seeing you on my grade curve. 8)

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laxbrah420
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby laxbrah420 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 pm

rad lulz wrote:Nova Law or Barry Law would probably take you. And Florida has pretty strong job prospects in the near future. Don't listen to the naysayers. They're all just elitist trolls who are mad because they don't have your strong softs. I went to Barry and got a 4.0 because I worked really hard. I got a sweet internship at a law firm this summer. You can do it too. Yeah I mean I'll be like $180k in debt when I get out, but being a lawyer is worth it.

There are basically two kinds of people who apply to law school: People who want to be lawyers to make money and people who want to be lawyers. If you want to make money, you shouldn't go to law school. If you want to be a lawyer because that's your dream, you should go no matter what. It's fucking outrageous that there are people on this site that think that just because a "council" believes he's not as smart as 60% in the country, he should abandon his dreams.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:26 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:There are basically two kinds of people who apply to law school: People who want to be lawyers to make money and people who want to be lawyers. If you want to make money, you shouldn't go to law school. If you want to be a lawyer because that's your dream, you should go no matter what. It's fucking outrageous that there are people on this site that think that just because a "council" believes he's not as smart as 60% in the country, he should abandon his dreams.


I don't think he cares what we think, nor should he. We don't determine his career, he does. If he really wants to do this, he should.

All I'm trying to say is that he is going about it in a stupid way. Just because you have great dreams doesn't mean that you have a good way to get there. OP is the equivlant of a kid trying to rush out to Hollywood to hit it big by taking a Greyhound. Instead of breaking into the movies with babes, power and fame, he's liable to come home with a sore ass, long hair and herpes. :?

RichieTheKid
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby RichieTheKid » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:39 pm

@OP

I did a Computer Engineering/Electrical Engineering double major while working and being heavily involved in 3-4 organizations. Don't try to sell me the it's so hard story. Not buying. Upwards of 20 people who have been there and done that have all given you the same information. Retake, Retake, RETAKE! Your LSAT is shit. And honestly the fact that you did that well GPA wise in an Engineering program while scoring that low on the LSAT is a major red flag. Chances are you won't be able to transfer to any school worth going to after 1L. And betting on transferring is never a good plan anyway. You seem really convinced that you're the only one who knows what's going on but I would urge you to reconsider.

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thelawyler
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby thelawyler » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:41 pm

moonman157 wrote:Terrible LSAT, plans to transfer, not interested in honest answers regarding chances of getting a good job, illogical refusal to retake the LSAT...100% flame


Yup lol this is definitely a troll. And everybody ate it up.

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thelawyler
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Re: Unsure where to apply.

Postby thelawyler » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:43 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Nova Law or Barry Law would probably take you. And Florida has pretty strong job prospects in the near future. Don't listen to the naysayers. They're all just elitist trolls who are mad because they don't have your strong softs. I went to Barry and got a 4.0 because I worked really hard. I got a sweet internship at a law firm this summer. You can do it too. Yeah I mean I'll be like $180k in debt when I get out, but being a lawyer is worth it.

There are basically two kinds of people who apply to law school: People who want to be lawyers to make money and people who want to be lawyers. If you want to make money, you shouldn't go to law school. If you want to be a lawyer because that's your dream, you should go no matter what. It's fucking outrageous that there are people on this site that think that just because a "council" believes he's not as smart as 60% in the country, he should abandon his dreams.


lol. Maybe he should be an astronaut too.




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