Berkeley vs UCLA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

UCLA or Berkeley

UCLA (105k)
28
56%
Berkeley (Sticker)
22
44%
 
Total votes: 50

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:49 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
CoconutP wrote:Haha, only on TLS do you have to show some form of disrespect (calling them trolls) in order to get some evidence.

Redamon, the site you are using is using old employment stats, and it isn't exactly showing where it is getting them from. I'm not arguing with the main fact that those data suggest, which I have always assumed to be true. Thanks for the input.

Money bags, did you apply to UCB?

Yup, only school that rejected me. Obviously, if Columbia wasn't worth it to me at sticker, Berkeley wouldn't be either.


Really? I got into Columbia and had to recently withdraw. My decision there basically was that I didn't like the school when I visited, not to mention the student body seems a lot more intense. But that is a different topic.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby moneybagsphd » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:56 pm

CoconutP wrote:Really? I got into Columbia and had to recently withdraw. My decision there basically was that I didn't like the school when I visited, not to mention the student body seems a lot more intense. But that is a different topic.

... Not exactly what I meant. If this poll had Columbia as an option, it would be trouncing Berkeley because C has better biglaw placement. And everyone would tell you that "fit" is a bad reason to pick Berkeley over Columbia. I mean, you just have to make the best choice for you.
Lasers wrote:berkeley if you even are thinking of big law.

If OP goes to berkeley, strikes out at biglaw & PI, he will likely be in debt for 25 years before his loans are forgiven.

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:01 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
CoconutP wrote:Really? I got into Columbia and had to recently withdraw. My decision there basically was that I didn't like the school when I visited, not to mention the student body seems a lot more intense. But that is a different topic.

... Not exactly what I meant. If this poll had Columbia as an option, it would be trouncing Berkeley because C has better biglaw placement. And everyone would tell you that "fit" is a bad reason to pick Berkeley over Columbia. I mean, you just have to make the best choice for you.
Lasers wrote:berkeley if you even are thinking of big law.

If OP goes to berkeley, strikes out at biglaw & PI, he will likely be in debt for 25 years before his loans are forgiven.


Didn't really want to get in this discussion, but I think its necessary. "Everyone" would say fit is a bad reason? That's some BS. Culture matters, and success in law school is a lot of times related to mental fitness, which is no doubt improved or worsened by certain schools, depending on the person. Sorry just had to say that. Columbia would be hell for me, but clearly that is not the case for you. Respect.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby moneybagsphd » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:04 pm

CoconutP wrote:Didn't really want to get in this discussion, but I think its necessary. "Everyone" would say fit is a bad reason? That's some BS. Culture matters, and success in law school is a lot of times related to mental fitness, which is no doubt improved or worsened by certain schools, depending on the person. Sorry just had to say that. Columbia would be hell for me, but clearly that is not the case for you. Respect.

To be clear, I'm not saying that fit doesn't matter at all; that is the common TLS wisdom. I didn't actually visit Columbia, so I'm not sure how it is there.

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Lasers
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lasers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:04 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
Lasers wrote:berkeley if you even are thinking of big law.

If OP goes to berkeley, strikes out at biglaw & PI, he will likely be in debt for 25 years before his loans are forgiven.

well shit, i guess you're right that even with a 55% chance at biglaw, OP could easily still strike out. i guess it depends on how much OP wants big law, and how debt/risk adverse OP is.

i'd go to berk myself if put in this same situation, but i really don't see a wrong answer here between the two.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby moneybagsphd » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:09 pm

Lasers wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
Lasers wrote:berkeley if you even are thinking of big law.

If OP goes to berkeley, strikes out at biglaw & PI, he will likely be in debt for 25 years before his loans are forgiven.

well shit, i guess you're right that even with a 55% chance at biglaw, OP could easily still strike out. i guess it depends on how much OP wants big law, and how debt/risk adverse OP is.

i'd go to berk myself if put in this same situation, but i really don't see a wrong answer here between the two.

Didn't you get top 10% ish your first semester? No doubt you'd be in a good place for biglaw at either of these schools.

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:15 pm

Sorry, let me throw a wrench in this. Lets say I do not want to work in big law, what would you say then? I tend to think I am not cut out for big law based on my work experience.

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby shoeshine » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:18 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
CoconutP wrote:Are you going to gun for a summer SA position? IF your parents are covering COL and you have 120, then you are really only 30k in debt right, why would you let that balloon to 74k?

Given that Berkeley is winning the poll, I have to agree with common TLS wisdom that there are a lot of Berkeley trolls who can't back up their own school.

1) Something like that. I'm just going focus on doing well in law school. I will likely try to get a biglaw job (like everyone else). Columbia places like 80% of the class in biglaw (might just be OCI #s)... Getting biglaw from USC is going to be harder, but at least I won't be in a suffocating amount of debt.
2) I will be taking out 5k/year to help my parents...


Honestly by your logic you should go to an even lower ranked school and get a full ride with a stipend. The starting salaries for law are bimodal. And the reality is that the lower paying starting law jobs barely exist in CA right now. There is no difference in making a payment on 200k of debt or 75k in debt when you have no job and no job prospects.

Basically my advice is to give yourself a decent shot at big law (i.e. go Columbia) or put yourself in a position where you have absolutely no debt and all you need to worry about is finding a job.

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby shoeshine » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:19 pm

CoconutP wrote:Sorry, let me throw a wrench in this. Lets say I do not want to work in big law, what would you say then? I tend to think I am not cut out for big law based on my work experience.

If you want Biglaw then you should go to Berkeley. End of story.

Edit: Misread, go to UCLA if you are 100% sure you don't want big law.
Last edited by shoeshine on Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lasers
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lasers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:21 pm

CoconutP wrote:Sorry, let me throw a wrench in this. Lets say I do not want to work in big law, what would you say then? I tend to think I am not cut out for big law based on my work experience.

i don't know the numbers exactly, but if i'm not mistaken, berkeley's clerkship numbers should be significantly better than ucla's.

still, because banking on that is risky as hell, i'd change my vote to ucla if you don't want big law.

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:10 pm

So why is PI or government so risky? I understand all employment in law is risky to bank on, but is PI and government THAT risky? I visited both schools, and both really tried to allay any concerns I had about pursuing PI or government. I just figure that Berkeley gives me a better shot at both, so thats one reason Im going leaning towards B, if I'm successful then I get LRAP which is nice, if I fail, obviously I'm in a lot of debt, but better positioned for big law?

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soj
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby soj » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:00 am

jim-green wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:Sure, who doesn't want a national degree? ... Berkeley is the better school, there's no two ways about it. But is it worth it to you?
I turned down Columbia at sticker (national) to go to USC (super regional) with a 120k scholarship because the extra money wasn't worth it to me. I didn't want to commit to the maximum term of biglaw to pay down my debt. It was hard to turn down my dream school (and the prestige). Berkeley might be the right decision for you, but you need to be clear about your goals...

If you want big law, the bolded was a huge mistake ... It is insane to gamble 125k on the assumption that you will be top 25%. Having a 60-70% chance at big law at Columbia (or 55% for OP at Berkeley) is much more reasonable. Plus the LRAP programs for students at T14 schools provide a reasonable fall back if you completely strike out.
Aren't you Ken who started TLS?

lol

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:39 am

CoconutP wrote:Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Brentwood vs. Berkeley? If you think Berkeley is nicer, I want some of your drugs.

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Lasers
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lasers » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:14 am

Lawl Shcool wrote:
CoconutP wrote:Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Brentwood vs. Berkeley? If you think Berkeley is nicer, I want some of your drugs.

haha. i've been to both campuses; uc berkeley's campus is genuinely beautiful, but ucla's campus is probably my favorite campus i've ever visited. not only that, but westwood is pretty darn awesome. i'd definitely agree that ucla is nicer, but it's not like berkeley isn't nice in its own right.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:37 am

Lasers wrote:
Lawl Shcool wrote:
CoconutP wrote:Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Brentwood vs. Berkeley? If you think Berkeley is nicer, I want some of your drugs.

haha. i've been to both campuses; uc berkeley's campus is genuinely beautiful, but ucla's campus is probably my favorite campus i've ever visited. not only that, but westwood is pretty darn awesome. i'd definitely agree that ucla is nicer, but it's not like berkeley isn't nice in its own right.


I went to Berkeley, the campus is decent but the surrounding area(s) are pure trash. SoCal is better in every important respect.

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby woeisme » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:21 am

moneybagsphd wrote:
shoeshine wrote:If you want big law, the bolded was a huge mistake.

OP's decision is slightly less crazy but I would tell anyone who wants a shot at big law to go T14 (possibly even T10) or don't go to law school. The big law economy has only recovered in the top schools. The regional school are still struggling with big law placement.

It is insane to gamble 125k on the assumption that you will be top 25%. Having a 60-70% chance at big law at Columbia (or 55% for OP at Berkeley) is much more reasonable. Plus the LRAP programs for students at T14 schools provide a reasonable fall back if you completely strike out.

I don't think so. Then again, I'm not biglaw or bust. I am not certain that I want to work in the biglaw salt mines for 5-7 years. I might love biglaw, I might hate it. If I hate it, I don't want to be stuck with it. My situation is a little different than OP's as my parents are paying COL. My total debt, on a 10yr repayment plan, from USC will be ~74k. My debt from Columbia would have been 290k. That's ~29,000/year for 10 years. Fuck that.


You didn't have in between options? No other T14s with partial money? I mean whatever, ... what's done is done, but not many people make that kind of choice. Best of luck to you- hopefully you destroy the USC curve! :-)

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:31 am

I went to USC for undergrad. Had I not I probably would take it at 120 over Columbia Sticker purely because of the alumni network in California.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby moneybagsphd » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:02 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:I went to Berkeley, the campus is decent but the surrounding area(s) are pure trash. SoCal is better in every important respect.

I went to Berkeley too and have spent a lot of time on UCLA's campus. Berkeley is definitely prettier overall than UCLA. Sure, South side is grimy and overrun with homeless people. And there are tons of mediocre shops-restaurants sustained by naive freshmen who are afraid to wander too far from their dorm rooms. But the city of Berkeley is bigger than the campus. The houses/views on North Side along the hills are phenomenal (I had a place with a view of the Bay). West Side has great shopping-dining options.

woeisme wrote:You didn't have in between options? No other T14s with partial money? I mean whatever, ... what's done is done, but not many people make that kind of choice. Best of luck to you- hopefully you destroy the USC curve! :-)

I did. Pretty good money at Cornell and Michigan in fact. But my SO needs to be in a city for her job... Thanks. :mrgreen:

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby jim-green » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:20 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:I went to Berkeley too and have spent a lot of time on UCLA's campus. Berkeley is definitely prettier overall than UCLA. Sure, South side is grimy and overrun with homeless people. And there are tons of mediocre shops-restaurants sustained by naive freshmen who are afraid to wander too far from their dorm rooms. But the city of Berkeley is bigger than the campus. The houses/views on North Side along the hills are phenomenal (I had a place with a view of the Bay). West Side has great shopping-dining options.
Our kid was accepted to a daycare on Haste and Shattuck, in the South it looks like from a map. Boalt also appears to be in the South to me. So we are thinking of living near Telegraph and Derby. Is this the grimy Southside you speak of? In that case, I need to rethink.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby moneybagsphd » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:36 pm

jim-green wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:I went to Berkeley too and have spent a lot of time on UCLA's campus. Berkeley is definitely prettier overall than UCLA. Sure, South side is grimy and overrun with homeless people. And there are tons of mediocre shops-restaurants sustained by naive freshmen who are afraid to wander too far from their dorm rooms. But the city of Berkeley is bigger than the campus. The houses/views on North Side along the hills are phenomenal (I had a place with a view of the Bay). West Side has great shopping-dining options.
Our kid was accepted to a daycare on Haste and Shattuck, in the South it looks like from a map. Boalt also appears to be in the South to me. So we are thinking of living near Telegraph and Derby. Is this the grimy Southside you speak of? In that case, I need to rethink.

Kind of... It's south of people's park, so it's not as ridden with homeless people. The griminess is really more of an aesthetic concern than a safety concern, though. I'm not an imposing figure (tallish but rather slender) and I've wandered South Side at all hours of the night without problems. Stick to main, well-lit streets. However, I wouldn't recommend Telegraph to someone situated with a family. I would recommend somewhere on North Side (although it might be a hassle getting your kid to and from day care). Send me a PM if you have any specific questions.

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Golden Bear 11 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:44 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
jim-green wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:I went to Berkeley too and have spent a lot of time on UCLA's campus. Berkeley is definitely prettier overall than UCLA. Sure, South side is grimy and overrun with homeless people. And there are tons of mediocre shops-restaurants sustained by naive freshmen who are afraid to wander too far from their dorm rooms. But the city of Berkeley is bigger than the campus. The houses/views on North Side along the hills are phenomenal (I had a place with a view of the Bay). West Side has great shopping-dining options.
Our kid was accepted to a daycare on Haste and Shattuck, in the South it looks like from a map. Boalt also appears to be in the South to me. So we are thinking of living near Telegraph and Derby. Is this the grimy Southside you speak of? In that case, I need to rethink.

Kind of... It's south of people's park, so it's not as ridden with homeless people. The griminess is really more of an aesthetic concern than a safety concern, though. I'm not an imposing figure (tallish but rather slender) and I've wandered South Side at all hours of the night without problems. Stick to main, well-lit streets. However, I wouldn't recommend Telegraph to someone situated with a family. I would recommend somewhere on North Side (although it might be a hassle getting your kid to and from day care). Send me a PM if you have any specific questions.


I agree with the poster. The griminess is more aesthetic than safety. I've walked on southside at all hours, too w/o problems, though I was never near Derby at 11pm/12am at night. The farther you are from campus, the more crime.

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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby 005618502 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:02 pm

CoconutP wrote:
woeisme wrote:Peer schools...

no, just kidding. I'd probably take the money here though.


I'm assuming you aren't from California. It seems that everywhere, except California, people have the idea that UCB and UCLA are not peer, whereas here, most assume they are essentially the same, maybe UCB being a bit better. I'm a little confused by UCB's prestige; I can't find much reason to think that students there are any smarter, productive, or successful than UCLA students, and this goes for undergrad and grad programs. Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Wow, I dont know if you are from CA now, or do you have your head in a hole? I grew up in CA and graduated from HS in SoCal and not a single person I met thought they were "the same" when someone said they were going to berk for college it was a "Holy shit this guy is smart" moment. If it was UCLA, it was more of a "o, cool"

That was stupid, I know, but seriously people in CA dont think that. Unless you are from a poor uneducated area

CoconutP
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby CoconutP » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:08 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
CoconutP wrote:
woeisme wrote:Peer schools...

no, just kidding. I'd probably take the money here though.


I'm assuming you aren't from California. It seems that everywhere, except California, people have the idea that UCB and UCLA are not peer, whereas here, most assume they are essentially the same, maybe UCB being a bit better. I'm a little confused by UCB's prestige; I can't find much reason to think that students there are any smarter, productive, or successful than UCLA students, and this goes for undergrad and grad programs. Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Wow, I dont know if you are from CA now, or do you have your head in a hole? I grew up in CA and graduated from HS in SoCal and not a single person I met thought they were "the same" when someone said they were going to berk for college it was a "Holy shit this guy is smart" moment. If it was UCLA, it was more of a "o, cool"

That was stupid, I know, but seriously people in CA dont think that. Unless you are from a poor uneducated area


This is probably a stupid point to argue. But I want to address that you are referring to your high school friends. Go talk to any working professional. Berkeley raises an eyebrow because its more exclusive, not because it has smarter people.

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Lasers
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby Lasers » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:11 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
CoconutP wrote:
woeisme wrote:Peer schools...

no, just kidding. I'd probably take the money here though.


I'm assuming you aren't from California. It seems that everywhere, except California, people have the idea that UCB and UCLA are not peer, whereas here, most assume they are essentially the same, maybe UCB being a bit better. I'm a little confused by UCB's prestige; I can't find much reason to think that students there are any smarter, productive, or successful than UCLA students, and this goes for undergrad and grad programs. Stil, this is a hard decision since Berkeley is a much nicer place than UCLA.


Wow, I dont know if you are from CA now, or do you have your head in a hole? I grew up in CA and graduated from HS in SoCal and not a single person I met thought they were "the same" when someone said they were going to berk for college it was a "Holy shit this guy is smart" moment. If it was UCLA, it was more of a "o, cool"

That was stupid, I know, but seriously people in CA dont think that. Unless you are from a poor uneducated area

i second this general idea, though from all my experiences, ucla is very highly regarded as well and illicited more than a "oh, cool" response. in fact, for undergrad, i know friends who chose ucla over berkeley (who cares about undergrad, anyway?!).

for law school though, it seems like berkeley is clearly regarded as a better institution (though some lay people in socal may think they are on par).

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ocajavati
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Re: Berkeley vs UCLA

Postby ocajavati » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:57 pm

I've always wondered why people never consider the unlikely scenario of not getting big law coming out of Berkeley.

I'm sure some people don't. In the unlikely scenario that you happen to be one of those people, you'll be staring down a near $300k debt with little ways to repay it.

A scary prospect if you ask me.

AssumptionRequired wrote:
CoconutP wrote:
That was stupid, I know, but seriously people in CA dont think that. Unless you are from a poor uneducated area


That's... entirely untrue. I think it has more to do with region. SoCal people believe UCLA to be on par with Berkeley, whereas it wouldn't make much sense to relocate from North Cal if you got into both. Depends on the major, really. But as far as lay prestige goes, UCB is only slightly above UCLA, at least for those living in SoCal.




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