Seattle vs. Denver

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:56 pm

I would much rather live on $15,000 with no debt than $45,000 with $150,000 debt.

Paul Campos
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:12 pm

More fun with statistics: what percentage of this graduating class was reported to have a salary of at least $60,000?
--LinkRemoved--

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:13 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:I would much rather live on $15,000 with no debt than $45,000 with $150,000 debt.



To each his own I guess. 45,000 is almost 4,000 per month. Assuming going on a ten year repayment plan loan payments would be around 1700 per month (just estimating for simplicity). Even after loan payments you would still end up with more money at 45,000 with 150,000 debt than 15,000 alone. It cuts it close in this scenario. When you get to lord Randolph's suggestion of around a 60,000 scenario, then wanting 15,000 over 60,000 with debt makes no sense at all. Unless, of course, your life's passion is to be a barrista (the only type of job that leaves someone with something as low as 15,000).

rad lulz
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:17 pm

Lord Randolf's scenario is sublimely idiotic when you consider that in 2010 only 62% of CU grads got long term, non-business/industry jobs. This is basically the best proxy we have for full-time, bar passage-required employment. See also Campos, supra.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:19 pm

rad lulz wrote:Lord Randolf's scenario is sublimely idiotic when you consider that in 2010 only 62% of CU grads got long term, non-business/industry jobs. This is basically the best proxy we have for full-time, bar passage-required employment. See also Campos, supra.



Yea, I was really only responding to temporary saints comment, not what people out of CU were actually getting.

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flem
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby flem » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:43 pm

Paul Campos wrote:More fun with statistics: what percentage of this graduating class was reported to have a salary of at least $60,000?
--LinkRemoved--


Bro seriously, how awkward is it when you enter the faculty lounge at CU? Can you hear a pin drop?

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:03 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I would much rather live on $15,000 with no debt than $45,000 with $150,000 debt.



To each his own I guess. 45,000 is almost 4,000 per month. Assuming going on a ten year repayment plan loan payments would be around 1700 per month (just estimating for simplicity). Even after loan payments you would still end up with more money at 45,000 with 150,000 debt than 15,000 alone. It cuts it close in this scenario. When you get to lord Randolph's suggestion of around a 60,000 scenario, then wanting 15,000 over 60,000 with debt makes no sense at all. Unless, of course, your life's passion is to be a barrista (the only type of job that leaves someone with something as low as 15,000).


I think you're just massively undervaluing how fucked someone is with 45k salary and that kind of debt.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:16 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I would much rather live on $15,000 with no debt than $45,000 with $150,000 debt.



To each his own I guess. 45,000 is almost 4,000 per month. Assuming going on a ten year repayment plan loan payments would be around 1700 per month (just estimating for simplicity). Even after loan payments you would still end up with more money at 45,000 with 150,000 debt than 15,000 alone. It cuts it close in this scenario. When you get to lord Randolph's suggestion of around a 60,000 scenario, then wanting 15,000 over 60,000 with debt makes no sense at all. Unless, of course, your life's passion is to be a barrista (the only type of job that leaves someone with something as low as 15,000).


I think you're just massively undervaluing how fucked someone is with 45k salary and that kind of debt.



Lol you didn't address any of the actual points I made. And I think your undervaluing how fucked someone is only making 15,000 a year or less. Making 15,000 dollars or less is rough dude. I would know. I'll take the debt with the 45,000 salary. That isn't a fucked situation. It's a hard one.

Edit: you're also assuming someone who makes 45,000 will never make anymore money than that ever. Life isn't that static. However, making 15,000 as a barrista or something does tend to stay the same in pay.

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:31 pm

Dude, it's hard to address your points when you actually consider a ten year repayment plan on 150k on a 45k salary something at all reasonable.

For the record, if the online calculators I'm using are correct.

After tax take home in Colorado on 45k: 33,729
On 15k: 12,063

Now, subtract 1700 a month debt payment on your 45k: 13,329

Yeah, three years of law school are sure worth an extra $1300. Especially given that as a barista I'd welfare and can bang my impressionable newly legal coworkers.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:37 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Dude, it's hard to address your points when you actually consider a ten year repayment plan on 150k on a 45k salary something at all reasonable.

For the record, if the online calculators I'm using are correct.

After tax take home in Colorado on 45k: 33,729
On 15k: 12,063

Now, subtract 1700 a month debt payment on your 45k: 13,329

Yeah, three years of law school are sure worth an extra $1300. Especially given that as a barista I'd welfare and can bang my impressionable newly legal coworkers.



You are completely missing the point. I want you to go through EVERYTHING i have said ITT and quote where I said "oh yea that's a pretty good and reasonable outcome". HINT: I never said that. I responded to lord Randolph about what constitutes as "totally broke" (most people on these boards don't have a fuckig clue what being totally broke is actually like so often their perspective is way out of whack with real life). You then responded with I would rather make 15,000 then 45,000 with debt. I said, based on my experience, I would much rather have the debt with the 45,000. You are putting my point way out of context. Never once in any of these posts have I advocated to someone that taking out six figure debt for a 40,000 job was a great idea with a reasonable outcome.

I am merely saying that making 15,000 a year or less is truly truly horrendous. And the type of jobs that pay this hardly ever give room for raises or advancement. They are usually high school level jobs.

Edit: and you're still assuming the guy making 45,000 would never make a penny more per year ever in his life. Again, life is never that static. I'm all for the law school transparency thing and informing students. But sometimes this just gets out of hand. There needs to be some balance and objectivity here.
Last edited by RedBirds2011 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:43 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Dude, it's hard to address your points when you actually consider a ten year repayment plan on 150k on a 45k salary something at all reasonable.

For the record, if the online calculators I'm using are correct.

After tax take home in Colorado on 45k: 33,729
On 15k: 12,063

Now, subtract 1700 a month debt payment on your 45k: 13,329

Yeah, three years of law school are sure worth an extra $1300. Especially given that as a barista I'd welfare and can bang my impressionable newly legal coworkers.

Add $45k in opportunity cost for going to lawl school

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:31 pm

Redbirds, the point is you're equally broke in both scenarios. Making 45k a year working shitlaw to be equally broke? Like you said different strokes, but I don't see the appeal.

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Young Hemingway
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby Young Hemingway » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:10 am


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flem
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby flem » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:12 am

Young Hemingway wrote:http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/06/bubble.html


lolol

Image

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Young Hemingway
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby Young Hemingway » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:18 am

Now on one level R2L's Lord Randolph McDuff's advice is pretty good all things considered. He's starting to come out of the 1L bubble, and beginning to grapple straightforwardly with the fact that almost all law schools these days are a bad idea at sticker, and that people just shouldn't do that...

On another he's still living in a mental world in which his expected outcome is a (legal?) job that pays $60K. How many 2010 CU law grads -- the most recent year for which the figures are available to me -- got a job paying at least $60K? The reported salary data indicates that about 24 grads got jobs with law firms paying that much or more, along with six people in "business" and a couple in government. So that's 32 out of 183 grads -- 17.5% of the class, which happens to be exactly the same number of 2010 grads who were unemployed or whose status was unknown nine months after graduation.


Here is a very rough cut of the mental map of the median student enrolling at "solid top tier regional law schools" these days (CU is ranked 44th right now).

0L: I probably won't get a six-figure job straight out of law school but it's very likely I'll get a $60K job unless I'm at the bottom of the class.

After 1L: The median outcome is $60K which frankly is pretty scary given this cost structure so I really need to hustle.

After graduation: I don't have a $60K job and neither do any of my friends. What was I thinking?

Unfortunately while 0Ls and 1Ls get tossed out of their bubbles eventually, law school faculty can (and largely do) stay in theirs.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:22 am

Young Hemingway wrote:http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/06/bubble.html




:lol: :lol:

Oh my god. Just lol at Lord Randolph being quoted. There is another article written that references TLS lingo as well on that site. I read it on JDU the other day and could not stop rolling my eyes.


Edit:Lord Randolph, you're famous now lmao

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:24 pm

This thread has been very entertaining.

005618502
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby 005618502 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:29 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Dude, it's hard to address your points when you actually consider a ten year repayment plan on 150k on a 45k salary something at all reasonable.

For the record, if the online calculators I'm using are correct.

After tax take home in Colorado on 45k: 33,729
On 15k: 12,063

Now, subtract 1700 a month debt payment on your 45k: 13,329

Yeah, three years of law school are sure worth an extra $1300. Especially given that as a barista I'd welfare and can bang my impressionable newly legal coworkers.


Why is no one realizing that you would NEVER pay 1,700 a month while making 45K

Its called IBR, seriously STFU. If you would rather make 15,000 a year with no debt than 45K with 150,000 your an idiot who knows nothing about the real world. Making 45K you would only need to pay about 3K a YEAR in loans.

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:19 pm

First line of my post, breh. IBR is only a reasonable solution if you're in PI/Gov. Otherwise, Dat tax bomb.

ETA: So, you pay $3,000 a year. Length of IBR payment period is 20 years for private sector. To really get the point across let's just say you are only paying principle in this scenario. At the end of 20 years repayment you still owe 90k. You're taxed on your debt forgiveness as income. So, your tax obligation (assuming 45k salary in CO and current tax rates) is 43k or in other words essentially your entire salary.

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sunynp
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby sunynp » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:00 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Dude, it's hard to address your points when you actually consider a ten year repayment plan on 150k on a 45k salary something at all reasonable.

For the record, if the online calculators I'm using are correct.

After tax take home in Colorado on 45k: 33,729
On 15k: 12,063

Now, subtract 1700 a month debt payment on your 45k: 13,329

Yeah, three years of law school are sure worth an extra $1300. Especially given that as a barista I'd welfare and can bang my impressionable newly legal coworkers.


Why is no one realizing that you would NEVER pay 1,700 a month while making 45K

Its called IBR, seriously STFU. If you would rather make 15,000 a year with no debt than 45K with 150,000 your an idiot who knows nothing about the real world. Making 45K you would only need to pay about 3K a YEAR in loans.


On one calculator I checked the total you would pay is about $355 a month for a single person with an adjusted gross income of $45,000 and debt of $150,000 so about $4260.

But the real question is how likely is a CU grad (to go with Campos' discussion on his blog) to get the $45,000 job. It sounds like $60,000 is a stretch. So how many $45,000 jobs are there to be had?

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:04 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:First line of my post, breh. IBR is only a reasonable solution if you're in PI/Gov. Otherwise, Dat tax bomb.

ETA: So, you pay $3,000 a year. Length of IBR payment period is 20 years for private sector. To really get the point across let's just say you are only paying principle in this scenario. At the end of 20 years repayment you still owe 90k. You're taxed on your debt forgiveness as income. So, your tax obligation (assuming 45k salary in CO and current tax rates) is 43k or in other words essentially your entire salary.



Well yea, if you are still making the exact same salary 20 years from now. If you know you are likely to get nailed tax wise. Start planning and saving for it right away. Again not ideal but not life over either.

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flem
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby flem » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:06 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:Well yea, if you are still making the exact same salary 20 years from now. If you know you are likely to get nailed tax wise. Start planning and saving for it right away. Again not ideal but not life over either.


TBF there's not a ton of room for advancement in places that are only willing to pay you 45k/yr sans benefits. They're going to work you to death until you collapse or leave.

ze2151
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby ze2151 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:43 pm

with all due respect to the op- do something else with your life. become a journeyman electrician. i just read that power bills are expected to creep due to increased environmental regulations and a surge in electric car buying. electricity isn't going anywhere, and our generation has been raised to think such a job is beneath us. it isn't, and there is demand for it. do that. if you have a college degree in business, start one. don't go to law school. don't do it. it will seriously affect my ability to sleep at night if you make a decision that is so obviously contrary to your best interest.

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Kronk
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby Kronk » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:53 pm

tbf to the OP, depending on what he does, his IBR forgiveness may not be considered taxable income.

That said I was considering a transfer to one of those schools and decided not to last second style because of loan / job fears, so I would think it's not the best situation to be in.

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skers
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Re: Seattle vs. Denver

Postby skers » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:32 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:Well yea, if you are still making the exact same salary 20 years from now. If you know you are likely to get nailed tax wise. Start planning and saving for it right away. Again not ideal but not life over either.


Can I assume that my salary gets to jump after 20 years as a barista? I mean if I can get into CU law I'm probably Starbucks manager secure.

There's no saving for the IBR tax bomb when you have six figure debt on that salary without PSLF. IBR payments won't even cover interest. Outstanding debt after twenty years is $401686. Try paying the tax on that even with a $60k salary. That is life destroying.

Is it a little hyperbolic to say I'd rather be making $15k? Sure. However keep in mind that the difference in disposable income between the ten year repayment plan is just $1300 and we're talking about a job making barely over minimum wage. Numerically, the law graduate is worse off than someone working as a waiter at Olive Garden, stocker at Lowe's, or any number of jobs that don't even require a GED.

The real to take away is that when 45k starting is the most likely outcome at a place like CU, sticker is absolutely not worth it. Solutions like save up pay tax on 400k of debt forgiveness or devote more than half of one's disposable income to student loan debt just aren't at all fucking viable.




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