BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

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leafs1315
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BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:14 pm

I know this has been asked many times before, but I have some differences in my situation. Both schools will be at sticker and I plan to do patent law (I have an engineering background). I would like to work in the northeast (60% NYC and 40% Boston).

I'm really torn between these schools.

Fordham is in NYC, places decently in NYC and has a good IP program, but I've been told specialty rankings don't matter.

BC places decent in NYC, places well in Boston and is cheaper than NYC and Fordham.

I've been told that Fordham has a lot of competition from NYU and Columbia, and BC has a lot of competition for BU and obviously Harvard.

Since I am paying sticker at both, I feel that BC has an edge due to it being cheaper and the COL near BC is cheaper too.

Any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thanks

DerekTokaz
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue May 29, 2012 10:26 pm

Don't take out $200,000+ of debt based on "I've been told."

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:32 pm

DerekTokaz wrote:Don't take out $200,000+ of debt based on "I've been told."


I do appreciate the reply, but I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I understand what you are trying to say and I've done as much research on this as I could. However, I'm still torn, thus asking for opinions of other people.

If it helps, my parents would be assisting me in paying for law school and the "I've been told" comes from a patent attorney I worked with and other TLSers.

Thanks

DerekTokaz
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue May 29, 2012 10:50 pm

If you're the pushy type, get on the phone with someone from admissions, tell them you are interested in their program, but would like more information, and ask them to release their NALP report. Right now, it's like deciding between two houses, and maybe you've done all the research you can, but the fact is the seller hasn't let you see the basement.

Also, what's your LSAT/GPA? Do you think you can wait, practice more, retake the LSAT and improve your score enough to get a scholarship somewhere?

One last thing to keep in mind, if you're not getting a scholarship offer, odds are you're going to be in the bottom half of the class come grading time. That can severely limit your career options.

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monkey85
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby monkey85 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:52 pm

No GW as an option?

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dingbat
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby dingbat » Tue May 29, 2012 10:57 pm

leafs1315 wrote: BC has an edge due to it being cheaper and the COL near BC is cheaper too.

The schools are near-identical in prestige and placement power. It's somewhat easier to get NY put of BC than Boston out of Fordham, but other than that, they're equivalent so go to the cheaper one

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:09 pm

Thanks for the replies, no GW option.

I plan to start law school this fall at either one of these schools, I don't want to take a year off or retake. Also, money isn't really that big of a limiting factor right now, I just want to go the school that will give me the best career options. I think calling the schools and asking them about their IP programs is a great idea and I'll do that first thing tomorrow.

I basically have until the end of this week to make a decision.

Does the IP ranking of Fordham have any weight when I'm applying for jobs?

Also, Since BC can get both NYC and Boston, does that mean it has better job placement compared to Fordham, which can only get NYC?

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jenesaislaw
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby jenesaislaw » Tue May 29, 2012 11:28 pm

Ask them how their IP programs translate to jobs. It's one thing to have a bunch of academics who specialize in IP law, and another for this to actually impact your career.

DerekTokaz
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue May 29, 2012 11:35 pm

dingbat wrote:The schools are near-identical in prestige and placement power. It's somewhat easier to get NY put of BC than Boston out of Fordham, but other than that, they're equivalent so go to the cheaper one

Fordham full time legal placement rate: 68.4%
Boston College: 78.1%

Near-identical?

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:35 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:Ask them how their IP programs translate to jobs. It's one thing to have a bunch of academics who specialize in IP law, and another for this to actually impact your career.


Thanks, I'm planning on calling each school and asking them about their IP program. I know Fordham's program is ranked in the top 15 and BC's isn't ranked. But like you said, it all depends on how it impacts my career.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed May 30, 2012 1:07 am

And if they try to bring that up, point out that the U.S. News specialty rankings are based solely on nominations by legal educators at other law schools, not placement ability, and that there's no public data available to support a claim that specialty rankings translate to your career.

Yeah, you might be slightly better prepared to X going to Y school, but if it doesn't/can't translate into you getting a job to use the skills, it doesn't matter.

And oh yeah, ask them why their NALP reports have not been made public. The response will be, "we do damn well on our website" -- then you can tell them it isn't enough and that they should be like the 48 other schools who decided it was easy, fair, and important to do :)

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dingbat
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby dingbat » Wed May 30, 2012 8:08 am

DerekTokaz wrote:
dingbat wrote:The schools are near-identical in prestige and placement power. It's somewhat easier to get NY put of BC than Boston out of Fordham, but other than that, they're equivalent so go to the cheaper one

Fordham full time legal placement rate: 68.4%
Boston College: 78.1%

Near-identical?

Can you provide the same statistics for several years running?
Not arguing, just want to see if the difference is a one year fluke or an ongoing trend

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jenesaislaw
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed May 30, 2012 10:07 am

Here are the trends. Keep in mind that the 2008 numbers cannot be compared to the 2009 - 2011 numbers. This is because we don't have the FT/PT breakdown of the Bar Passage Required category, as well as because we don't know what percentage of the class had an unknown employment status. (Prior to the class of 2009, U.S. News did not include this information separately.) BC has not made its 2011 figures public yet.

BC
2008: 91.6% (Legal)
2009: 81.6% (FT Legal)
2010: 78.9% (FT Legal)

Fordham
2008: 84.2% (Legal)
2009: 75.8% (FT Legal)
2010: 68.6% (FT Legal)
2011: 60.7% (FT Legal)

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Wed May 30, 2012 10:17 am

jenesaislaw wrote:Here are the trends. Keep in mind that the 2008 numbers cannot be compared to the 2009 - 2011 numbers. This is because we don't have the FT/PT breakdown of the Bar Passage Required category, as well as because we don't know what percentage of the class had an unknown employment status. (Prior to the class of 2009, U.S. News did not include this information separately.) BC has not made its 2011 figures public yet.

BC
2008: 91.6% (Legal)
2009: 81.6% (FT Legal)
2010: 78.9% (FT Legal)

Fordham
2008: 84.2% (Legal)
2009: 75.8% (FT Legal)
2010: 68.6% (FT Legal)
2011: 60.7% (FT Legal)


Thanks for the replies, this has helped a lot.

So it looks like BC places better than Fordham, could this be due to Fordham being more localized to NYC, while BC has Boston and NYC?

pballer
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby pballer » Wed May 30, 2012 10:32 am

DerekTokaz wrote:One last thing to keep in mind, if you're not getting a scholarship offer, odds are you're going to be in the bottom half of the class come grading time. That can severely limit your career options.


This statement, while technically factual, is really misleading. Yes, by virtue of grades/lsat being the best indicators available (not good ones, but better than nothing), those who merited scholarships are going to do some degree better than those who didn't in the aggregate, but "odds are" is not representative of anything other than a slightly better chance than those who did merit a scholarship.

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Wed May 30, 2012 10:59 am

pballer wrote:
DerekTokaz wrote:One last thing to keep in mind, if you're not getting a scholarship offer, odds are you're going to be in the bottom half of the class come grading time. That can severely limit your career options.


This statement, while technically factual, is really misleading. Yes, by virtue of grades/lsat being the best indicators available (not good ones, but better than nothing), those who merited scholarships are going to do some degree better than those who didn't in the aggregate, but "odds are" is not representative of anything other than a slightly better chance than those who did merit a scholarship.


I do understand that LSAT/GPA do correspond to success in law school to an extent. But I received good scholarships from several schools ranked only a couple spots lower than these schools. I also applied later in the cycle than normal (but not too late) and took the LSAT during my graduate school exams. I know these sound like excuses but my point is that I don't necessarily agree with the statement, at least for me (but I'm sure everyone would say this).

DerekTokaz
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby DerekTokaz » Wed May 30, 2012 11:00 am

pballer wrote:
DerekTokaz wrote:One last thing to keep in mind, if you're not getting a scholarship offer, odds are you're going to be in the bottom half of the class come grading time. That can severely limit your career options.

This statement, while technically factual, is really misleading. Yes, by virtue of grades/lsat being the best indicators available (not good ones, but better than nothing), those who merited scholarships are going to do some degree better than those who didn't in the aggregate, but "odds are" is not representative of anything other than a slightly better chance than those who did merit a scholarship.

I disagree that it's merely a "slightly better chance." There have been plenty of studies showing that LSAT/UGPA have a high degree of correlation to LGPA. LSAT is predictive on timed exams (with a short time limit), though not on take home exams or papers. UGPA remains predictive across all three types. http://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/c ... ext=facpub

The OP should be especially careful because he's interested in a niche area. The people who get the kind of work they want is some subset of the people who get any decent work at all.

DerekTokaz
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby DerekTokaz » Wed May 30, 2012 11:39 am

leafs1315 wrote:I do understand that LSAT/GPA do correspond to success in law school to an extent. But I received good scholarships from several schools ranked only a couple spots lower than these schools. I also applied later in the cycle than normal (but not too late) and took the LSAT during my graduate school exams. I know these sound like excuses but my point is that I don't necessarily agree with the statement, at least for me (but I'm sure everyone would say this).

The scholarship offer itself is irrelevant; I was using it as a proxy for LSAT/GPA since you didn't state yours.

pballer
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby pballer » Wed May 30, 2012 12:13 pm

I'm at work, so I can't really do any research to counter your article, but I still maintain that in situations where UGPAs and LSATs don't differ that drastically (read: people at the same school) those who don't have scholarships are not statistically doomed. There may be a slight increase in likelihood that they'd do worse relative to those with scholarships, but based on my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, it's really not that predictive.

tesoro
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby tesoro » Wed May 30, 2012 12:32 pm

OP what is your UG degree and approximate GPA? Are you looking to do patent prosecution? If the answer is EE, 3.6+, and yes, you'll outperform the statistics discussed in this thread dramatically.

You might also consider the number of patent pro shops that attend each school's OCI (I'm not sure how you'd find this info out).

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Wed May 30, 2012 1:13 pm

tesoro wrote:OP what is your UG degree and approximate GPA? Are you looking to do patent prosecution? If the answer is EE, 3.6+, and yes, you'll outperform the statistics discussed in this thread dramatically.

You might also consider the number of patent pro shops that attend each school's OCI (I'm not sure how you'd find this info out).


UG Degree is in biomedical engineering with a 3.3, currently finishing up my MS in bme. Graduate GPA 3.8 (not sure if this matters). I have gone through and found some of the top patent firms and seen where they have gotten their partners from, but not sure if that correlates to OCI.

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sky7
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby sky7 » Wed May 30, 2012 1:26 pm

GW.

leafs1315
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby leafs1315 » Wed May 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Looking at the NALP directory it seems that more firms do OCI at Fordham than BC, does this necessarily correlate to better job placement? It seems that BC places a better percentage into biglaw jobs. Also, BC offered me a scholarship, if that changes things.

Every patent lawyer I have talked to says go to the school that gives you the best job placement, in that regard, are both these schools the same?

Thanks for your help.

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dingbat
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby dingbat » Wed May 30, 2012 9:18 pm

.
Last edited by dingbat on Wed May 30, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

answer23
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Re: BC vs. Fordham - IP Law, both sticker

Postby answer23 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:38 pm

leafs1315 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory it seems that more firms do OCI at Fordham than BC, does this necessarily correlate to better job placement? It seems that BC places a better percentage into biglaw jobs. Also, BC offered me a scholarship, if that changes things.

Every patent lawyer I have talked to says go to the school that gives you the best job placement, in that regard, are both these schools the same?

Thanks for your help.


There are special patent law job fairs. For patent law you won't only have to rely on your schools oci. As long as you go to a respectable law school there should be no problem. Pick the cheaper option.
http://www.luc.edu/law/career/patent_students.html




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