Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
SplitLife
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby SplitLife » Tue May 29, 2012 5:49 pm

Disclaimer: I understand the consensus on TLS: these are both horrible options. That being said, I'm going to one of these two schools and I would like some advice from people who can provide more insight than "Retake" or "TTTT," etc.

McGeorge: 10k (top 1/3rd stip)
Case: 10k (possibly 15k later) (2.33 stip)

I have lived in SoCal my entire life. I would like to stay in Cali, but don't mind relocating if the money is right. (Visited NorCal & Sac, not a problem.)

My train of thought: (please correct me where you deem necessary):

Best case scenario: (least likely, yes)
I am able to kill it 1L and have transfer possibilities. UCLA is ideal since it runs the SoCal market, or so I've read.
According to Arrow's transfer student thread--
"To transfer into the T14 you need:
-top 10-15% at T1, top 5-10% for CCN
-top 5-10% at a T2, top 5% for CCN
-top 1-2% at a T3/T4
-Other notes: Depending on how far up you want to transfer, you may even succeed if you are ranked top 20-30%. For example, if you are transferring up like 10-15 spots, top 20-30% maybe enough (like a lateral transfer). Also, people in the T3/T4 generally only have a shot at transfer friendly schools in the T14.

To transfer into the T1 you need:
-top 10-20% at a T2
-top 5-10% at T3
-top 5% at T4
-Other notes: Depending on just exactly where you are and how far up you want to transfer, you can again make the jump by being in the top 20-30%."


--to get UCLA I would have to be top 10% at McGeorge versus top 20% at Case.
So in my mind, Case gives me the best shot at my ideal school.

Medium case scenario:
I have respectable (but not top 10-20%) grades at either school. For comparison, lets say I'm top 30% of my class.
I'm thinking Case still gives me the best opportunity to transfer into a Loyola/ Pepperdine.

Worst case scenario: (Most likely, I know)
I have middle of the pack/ non-spectacular grades upon completion of my JD and am forced to graduate from the school I originally chose to attend.
From the research/ reading I have done, I cant help but think that in this scenario, I will have a higher chance of making more money in Ohio than in Cali. Is this correct?
(For now, lets ignore the geography/ weather/ difference between Ohio and Cali, I know there's a big one).
Because at the end of the day, 30 years from now, I'd rather be somewhat financially stable and deal with rain/ snow, rather than enjoy the sun living paycheck to paycheck still paying off loans.
So the question here I guess is: Given the horrible legal market in CA, do I have a higher probability of making more money in the long run in Ohio rather than in CA after graduating from a non-top tier?

-I do have some ties to lawyers in CA through our religious community (biglaw, ADA, PD, smaller firms).
-I know I could graduate from Case and come back and do the CA bar and try to get interviews.

This is my thought process, guidance by people who have concrete knowledge either based on personal experience of the experience of a CLOSE friend/ family member will be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by SplitLife on Tue May 29, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby jarofsoup » Tue May 29, 2012 6:01 pm

If you are a risk taker Case Western Reserve is the best for the transfer game. But honestly McGeorge sucks so incredibly much, so I do not see it as any option.

JamesChapman23
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:48 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby JamesChapman23 » Tue May 29, 2012 6:02 pm

McGeorge DOMINATES

Paul Campos
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Paul Campos » Tue May 29, 2012 6:07 pm

Couple of things:

(1) As to the choice between these two schools, it's not close. While CWRU's employment stats are bad, they look like Stanford's by comparison to McGeorge, which arguably has the worst stats of any of the 145 schools actually ranked by USNWR. 50% more CWRU grads got long-term jobs than McGeorge grads did in 2010. Also that McGeorge stip is absurd. You have to discount it by the probability that you keep it, so it's worth about $3K per year.

(2) This is just a very tentative bit of speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the transfer market is relatively loose in 2013, with a lot of schools looking to fill empty seats without hurting their GPA/LSAT medians. (Again, just speculation). That's another argument for CWRU in this context.

Aqualibrium
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 am

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue May 29, 2012 6:25 pm

I don't see where you've accounted for or even mentioned the scenario where:

A) You get decent or great grades at Case and still can't get a job, even in Ohio; OR

B) You get decent or great grades at Case and can only get a really shitty job, even in Ohio; OR

C) You get shitty grades at Case and can't get a legal job anywhere.

SplitLife
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby SplitLife » Tue May 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I don't see where you've accounted for or even mentioned the scenario where:

A) You get decent or great grades at Case and still can't get a job, even in Ohio; OR

B) You get decent or great grades at Case and can only get a really shitty job, even in Ohio; OR

C) You get shitty grades at Case and can't get a legal job anywhere.


Nice! Yeah you're right, I forget to touch upon that. I guess because the way I see it, if A, B, or C do happen, they'll happen more likely at McGeorge than at Case...?
I want to stay in Cali obviously but the way it looks as of now, Cleveland/ Case may be the better of my top 2 options.

User avatar
scrowell
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:04 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby scrowell » Tue May 29, 2012 6:48 pm

jarofsoup wrote:If you are a risk taker Case Western Reserve is the best for the transfer game. But honestly McGeorge sucks so incredibly much, so I do not see it as any option.


What's so bad about McGeorge?

User avatar
moneybagsphd
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:07 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby moneybagsphd » Tue May 29, 2012 6:53 pm

SplitLife wrote:Disclaimer: I understand the consensus on TLS: these are both horrible options. That being said, I'm going to one of these two schools and I would like some advice from people who can provide more insight than "Retake" or "TTTT," etc.

I hate these "I'm going to X or Y shitty law school, and don't even try to talk me out of it" threads... At least you seem to understand that transferring is a mug's game.
However, this thread is relevant to your interests.
TCR
Paul Campos wrote:Couple of things:

(1) As to the choice between these two schools, it's not close. While CWRU's employment stats are bad, they look like Stanford's by comparison to McGeorge, which arguably has the worst stats of any of the 145 schools actually ranked by USNWR. 50% more CWRU grads got long-term jobs than McGeorge grads did in 2010. Also that McGeorge stip is absurd. You have to discount it by the probability that you keep it, so it's worth about $3K per year.

(2) This is just a very tentative bit of speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the transfer market is relatively loose in 2013, with a lot of schools looking to fill empty seats without hurting their GPA/LSAT medians. (Again, just speculation). That's another argument for CWRU in this context.

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby jarofsoup » Tue May 29, 2012 7:42 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
SplitLife wrote:Disclaimer: I understand the consensus on TLS: these are both horrible options. That being said, I'm going to one of these two schools and I would like some advice from people who can provide more insight than "Retake" or "TTTT," etc.

I hate these "I'm going to X or Y shitty law school, and don't even try to talk me out of it" threads... At least you seem to understand that transferring is a mug's game.
However, this thread is relevant to your interests.
TCR
Paul Campos wrote:Couple of things:

(1) As to the choice between these two schools, it's not close. While CWRU's employment stats are bad, they look like Stanford's by comparison to McGeorge, which arguably has the worst stats of any of the 145 schools actually ranked by USNWR. 50% more CWRU grads got long-term jobs than McGeorge grads did in 2010. Also that McGeorge stip is absurd. You have to discount it by the probability that you keep it, so it's worth about $3K per year.

(2) This is just a very tentative bit of speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the transfer market is relatively loose in 2013, with a lot of schools looking to fill empty seats without hurting their GPA/LSAT medians. (Again, just speculation). That's another argument for CWRU in this context.



I hate when people cite Paul Campos on here. He is just another opinion out there and in his own way trying to make a name for himself. Not sure why he is on law school blogs.( No insult to Campos its just a bit strange)..

If you want to know why McGeorge sucks drive by it. I would rather have not attended than go to McGeorge.

Best of luck with your decision.

User avatar
scrowell
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:04 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby scrowell » Tue May 29, 2012 7:44 pm

I can't drive my McGeorge. I live nowhere near it.

User avatar
tedalbany
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby tedalbany » Tue May 29, 2012 7:54 pm

Wtf happened to TLS, why are people entertaining the idea of going to Case Western? OP: Don't go to either of these law schools and DO NOT go to law school with the intention of transferring. Just study hard for the LSAT and retake, and if you can't break 160ish then just don't go to law school. No big loss, it's a TTT profession anyway.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby rad lulz » Tue May 29, 2012 8:06 pm

You have a better shot at unemployment or underemployment than transferring or a good job. Retake or don't go.

humbugger
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:08 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby humbugger » Tue May 29, 2012 8:55 pm

Your best-case scenario has a worst-case scenario: you get into UCLA, but since you were in Ohio you lose your CA resident status and have to pay $55k yearly tuition with no scholarship. I haven't looked into CA residency requirements, but even at the in-state rate of $45k, w/o a scholarship, it's scary.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Nova » Tue May 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Go to Chase, its far and away the better school. Try your best to transfer back...

Or, retake to stay in/near Cali. (TCR)
Last edited by Nova on Wed May 30, 2012 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:32 pm

jarofsoup wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
SplitLife wrote:Disclaimer: I understand the consensus on TLS: these are both horrible options. That being said, I'm going to one of these two schools and I would like some advice from people who can provide more insight than "Retake" or "TTTT," etc.

I hate these "I'm going to X or Y shitty law school, and don't even try to talk me out of it" threads... At least you seem to understand that transferring is a mug's game.
However, this thread is relevant to your interests.
TCR
Paul Campos wrote:Couple of things:

(1) As to the choice between these two schools, it's not close. While CWRU's employment stats are bad, they look like Stanford's by comparison to McGeorge, which arguably has the worst stats of any of the 145 schools actually ranked by USNWR. 50% more CWRU grads got long-term jobs than McGeorge grads did in 2010. Also that McGeorge stip is absurd. You have to discount it by the probability that you keep it, so it's worth about $3K per year.

(2) This is just a very tentative bit of speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the transfer market is relatively loose in 2013, with a lot of schools looking to fill empty seats without hurting their GPA/LSAT medians. (Again, just speculation). That's another argument for CWRU in this context.



I hate when people cite Paul Campos on here. He is just another opinion out there and in his own way trying to make a name for himself. Not sure why he is on law school blogs.( No insult to Campos its just a bit strange)...


They quote him because he has some fantastic blog posts on the law school scam. You could always engage with his position and try to point out why he is wrong...

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby jarofsoup » Wed May 30, 2012 12:20 am

I am a first year law student at a Tier 2 waiting on grades. I have been accepted to a top 20 school EA and so my liberation depends on making stipulations and hoping that I can maybe move up higher in the food chain if my grades are good. I do agree with Campos, but I am trying not to loose my shit here.
.

SplitLife
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby SplitLife » Wed May 30, 2012 2:34 am

Nova wrote:Go to Chase, its far and away the better school. Try your best to transfer back...

Or, retake to stay in/near Cali. (TCR)


I am waitlisted at UNLV (much cheaper tuition and pretty low cost of living). If I were to get into UNLV, would you recommend I attend at sticker due to its closeness to CA?

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Nova » Wed May 30, 2012 3:11 am

UNLV would be great for NV and marginally better than Case for Cali. It's up to you whether 30ish K is worth moving across the country.

SplitLife
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby SplitLife » Wed May 30, 2012 3:54 am

Well from what I read, it isn't too difficult to gain residency in NV (you pretty much just have to register your car and yourself as a NV resident).
UNLV at sticker would cost me about 16k less a year than Case at sticker so I would still be saving 1-6k a year by taking UNLV at sticker.
Out of state UNLV tuition is an extra 5-8k I believe so it wouldn't be a huge deal in the long run if I cant get residency for my first year (which I hear is the worst case).

So if I hear back from UNLV...take it?

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Nova » Wed May 30, 2012 4:18 am

Thats what I would do.

Case Class of 2010,
LST wrote:•54.3% of graduates were known employed in full-time legal jobs. This figure includes an unknown number of temporary jobs and school-funded jobs.
•60.5% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•64.6% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

•28.7% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.
•At least 14.3% of this school's graduates made $80,000 or more.


UNLV class of 2010,
LST wrote:•74.7% of graduates were known employed in full-time legal jobs. This figure includes an unknown number of temporary jobs and school-funded jobs.
•86.3% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•84.9% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

•50% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.
•We know that at least 25% of this school's graduates made $62,186 or more.

User avatar
tedalbany
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby tedalbany » Wed May 30, 2012 4:22 am

SplitLife wrote:Well from what I read, it isn't too difficult to gain residency in NV (you pretty much just have to register your car and yourself as a NV resident).
UNLV at sticker would cost me about 16k less a year than Case at sticker so I would still be saving 1-6k a year by taking UNLV at sticker.
Out of state UNLV tuition is an extra 5-8k I believe so it wouldn't be a huge deal in the long run if I cant get residency for my first year (which I hear is the worst case).

So if I hear back from UNLV...take it?


No, still an awful idea - especially since you want to work in CA.

SplitLife
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby SplitLife » Wed May 30, 2012 4:33 am

I want to work in CA ideally, aka transfer up to a UCLA/USC.
However, at the end of the day, my main concern is making as much money as possible, whatever that may be given the schools I'm getting acceptances from.
If I cant get to UCLA/USC, I would then settle for a 60-80k salary in cheap COL NV or OH instead of a 30-50k salary in expensive COL CA.

What I need to figure out is which school gives me the best shot at:
A) Getting to UCLA/USC, or
B) making the most money possible with my JD...

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Nova » Wed May 30, 2012 4:45 am

SplitLife wrote: However, at the end of the day, my main concern is making as much money as possible, whatever that may be given the schools I'm getting acceptances from.
If I cant get to UCLA/USC, I would then settle for a 60-80k salary in cheap COL NV or OH instead of a 30-50k salary in expensive COL CA.


Case. Better shot to transfer and better shot to make mid five figures.

User avatar
tedalbany
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby tedalbany » Wed May 30, 2012 4:51 am

SplitLife wrote:I want to work in CA ideally, aka transfer up to a UCLA/USC.
However, at the end of the day, my main concern is making as much money as possible, whatever that may be given the schools I'm getting acceptances from.
If I cant get to UCLA/USC, I would then settle for a 60-80k salary in cheap COL NV or OH instead of a 30-50k salary in expensive COL CA.

What I need to figure out is which school gives me the best shot at:
A) Getting to UCLA/USC, or
B) making the most money possible with my JD...

Ugh. There's so much wrong with this.

1. How does a 25% chance at making $60k mean you'll probably be making 60-80k coming out of UNLV? (Hint: You aren't a special snowflake, and odds are you won't be making that much - even if you do manage to obtain a full time permanent legal job).

2. Seriously, do not count on transferring. Your best shot at getting to UCLA/USC would be retaking the LSAT until you have a good enough LSAT. The lowest CA school you should take is UC-Davis/Hastings... or Pepperdine/USD if it's very cheap.

3. This is a horrible reason for going to law school. You probably will make a mediocre amount of money, especially with your numbers and the schools you are looking at (and by mediocre I mean $30-50k, all while paying off mountains of debt). Law school generally is a shitty profession and you'll be especially miserable if your main motivation is money. If you want to just make decent money and don't care about the work itself there are WAY better routes than law (and I wouldn't worry about prestige of the profession, you won't get any prestige with a McGeorge/Case degree anyway).

User avatar
tedalbany
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Pacific McGeorge vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby tedalbany » Wed May 30, 2012 4:51 am

Nova wrote:
SplitLife wrote: However, at the end of the day, my main concern is making as much money as possible, whatever that may be given the schools I'm getting acceptances from.
If I cant get to UCLA/USC, I would then settle for a 60-80k salary in cheap COL NV or OH instead of a 30-50k salary in expensive COL CA.


Case. Better shot to transfer and better shot to make mid five figures.


You don't give good advice.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 10 guests