Cornell vs Michigan

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Cornell (sticker) vs Michigan (sticker)

Cornell
28
47%
Michigan
31
53%
 
Total votes: 59

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Green Glass Windows
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Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Tue May 29, 2012 2:17 pm

Okay, so I looked around and couldn't find a topic quite like this, at least recently.

As of right now I'm accepted at Cornell and waitlisted at Michigan. Both will be sticker. I know I want to practice biglaw, probably in NYC, but I'm not opposed to LA or DC either. I've visited Cornell, and I really loved it. I have heard that it's pretty competitive up there, but I'm thinking that might actually help me perform better. I'm coming from an extremely huge undergraduate university in a pretty big city, so believe it or not, Ithaca and the smallness of Cornell appeal to me.

But then there's Michigan. In the event (unlikely?) that I get off the waitlist, should I still seriously consider Michigan? I've never been there, so I'm not sure how I'll like it up there. I know Michigan has been extremely hyped on TLS this year, but Cornell seems to place better in biglaw overall.

Thoughts?

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gaud
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby gaud » Tue May 29, 2012 2:21 pm

If you want NYC I'd stick with Cornell.

Joeshan520
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Joeshan520 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:22 pm

From what I've heard (working at a V10), Cornell has a better presence on the East Coast and Michigan's prospects have been slipping. I would say Cornell for NYC and Michigan for anything in the midwest.

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Tue May 29, 2012 2:35 pm

Joeshan520 wrote:From what I've heard (working at a V10), Cornell has a better presence on the East Coast and Michigan's prospects have been slipping. I would say Cornell for NYC and Michigan for anything in the midwest.

Okay, thanks. I've really been getting the same vibe from Michigan, and I kind of wanted to make sure that I wasn't just making it up. heh.

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Cartman
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Cartman » Tue May 29, 2012 2:38 pm

gaud wrote:If you want NYC I'd stick with Cornell.

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Tue May 29, 2012 9:38 pm

If the people voting for Michigan could tell me why, that would be fantastic. :wink:

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KMaine
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby KMaine » Tue May 29, 2012 9:43 pm

I just noticed a thread like this from the fall (2011) where Michigan beat Cornell by about 2:1. I think if you want the Northeast, Cornell is the slightly better option. Basically, though, they are peer schools. I had the same option three years back (though I had some $ from Cornell) and I have been very happy with my choice to attend Cornell.

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Tue May 29, 2012 9:46 pm

KMaine wrote:I just noticed a thread like this from the fall (2011) where Michigan beat Cornell by about 2:1. I think if you want the Northeast, Cornell is the slightly better option. Basically, though, they are peer schools. I had the same option three years back (though I had some $ from Cornell) and I have been very happy with my choice to attend Cornell.

Thanks! I'll look for that thread.

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T00L
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby T00L » Tue May 29, 2012 9:56 pm

This thread appeals to my interests. Green glass... Did you just get that email from dean z?

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Tue May 29, 2012 9:59 pm

T00L wrote:This thread appeals to my interests. Green glass... Did you just get that email from dean z?

Haha, yeah. I had kind of pushed Michigan off my radar until today. I'm not sure how great of a shot I have at even getting in off the waitlist, but I want to be prepared in case it actually does happen. (Also, I'm not sure how to respond to Dean Z.) :?

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T00L
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby T00L » Tue May 29, 2012 10:25 pm

Green Glass Windows wrote:
T00L wrote:This thread appeals to my interests. Green glass... Did you just get that email from dean z?

Haha, yeah. I had kind of pushed Michigan off my radar until today. I'm not sure how great of a shot I have at even getting in off the waitlist, but I want to be prepared in case it actually does happen. (Also, I'm not sure how to respond to Dean Z.) :?


I think it's encouraging. At least it gives you a chance to try. I'm depositing at corny tomorrow, and going to write dean z a nice note

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tedalbany
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby tedalbany » Tue May 29, 2012 10:28 pm

Joeshan520 wrote:From what I've heard (working at a V10), Cornell has a better presence on the East Coast and Michigan's prospects have been slipping. I would say Cornell for NYC and Michigan for anything in the midwest.


People have probably just been referring to the latest NLJ report, for which was an anomalous year for Michigan.

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Bronte
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Bronte » Tue May 29, 2012 10:35 pm

Joeshan520 wrote:From what I've heard (working at a V10), Cornell has a better presence on the East Coast and Michigan's prospects have been slipping. I would say Cornell for NYC and Michigan for anything in the midwest.


Michigan's prospects have not been slipping. If you've been watching US News and NLJ for more than one cycle you'd know that it would be very unwise to make decisions based on ticks up and down on those rankings. Just like it would have been unwise to say that Michigan was "on the rise" a year ago when it moved up in NLJ and US News. Small movements in those rankings are just noise.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed May 30, 2012 5:53 am

OP, is Michigan's higher ranking than Cornell the only reason you are having trouble deciding?

I ask because you list NYC first as your desired market, Cornell is certainly superior to Michigan in NYC, you like Cornell's small size, etc., and you really didn't list any advantages (for you) that Michigan has over Cornell. However, you seem torn over the decision and it's confusing because you haven't really given any information as to what exactly you are torn over (advantages of Michigan over Cornell for you).

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Cornell is certainly superior to Michigan in NYC.

This has been thrown out around here non-stop recently. Substantiate this. Show me one slice of data that shows that the same NYC firms will go deeper into Cornell's class for students than they will Michigan's.

I'm somewhat amazed that actual law students still haven't figured out correlation and causation. Placing more people in the easiest market does not make Cornell "superior" for NYC - it means more people went to Cornell wanting to go to the easiest market for biglaw. But apparently this has become a worthwhile line of reasoning ever since VPB earned 1 point more than Michigan in the USNews rankings and the official NLJ data from OCI three years ago (which, previous to its release, was widely expected to be exceptionally shitty due to a confluence of factors) was finally published this February.

Bottom line: Michigan students in the top 1/3 (and definitely top 1/4) are still competitive for NYC V10 firms, but fewer of our students are eager to flock to NYC. That doesn't mean those who want it (myself included) can't get it.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:15 am

We don't have to substantiate that statement. The fact of the matter is that we only have the information in front of us, and that information leads to the following conclusions:
1. Cornell is generally on par with, or better than, Michigan at NLJ firms (and firms with 50+ attorneys)
2. Cornell feeds into the NYC market in ways that Michigan does not (to the point that it is -rare- for a medium or larger NYC firm does not OCI at Cornell).
3. If we assume that attrition in big law is equal across the T14, Cornell has many more alums than Michigan currently in NYC firms that are able to help Cornell graduates. This is particularly important given that it is generally accepted notion that alumni of a school are more likely to hire graduates from that school than graduates from other schools.
4. The T14s are generally hyper regional in the sense that they are each strongest in their home regions; here, Cornell's home region is NY while Michigan's is the midwest
5. etc.

No one is saying that Michigan is a "bad" school. It's one of the very best around. However, if someone wants NYC, it doesn't make sense to pay the same or more in tuition for Michigan over Cornell.

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Wed May 30, 2012 9:34 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:OP, is Michigan's higher ranking than Cornell the only reason you are having trouble deciding?

I ask because you list NYC first as your desired market, Cornell is certainly superior to Michigan in NYC, you like Cornell's small size, etc., and you really didn't list any advantages (for you) that Michigan has over Cornell. However, you seem torn over the decision and it's confusing because you haven't really given any information as to what exactly you are torn over (advantages of Michigan over Cornell for you).

No, it's not really the ranking. Michigan was my top choice for awhile since I'm from the midwest and I originally didn't have as concrete of an idea of where I wanted to practice, the campus is beautiful and Dean Z is fantastic. When I was waitlisted, I basically wrote it off, and after I was accepted at Cornell, visited, and got attached to it, considering Michigan again became hard. Oh, and Michigan is cheaper.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Law Sauce » Wed May 30, 2012 9:52 am

Michigan is cheaper (enough to win), cheaper COL, larger alumni base, has an older more established top legal brand, will place you in NYC just as well as Cornell, and gives you better options in Chicago and the rest of the Midwest as well as the rest of the country. If you get in, go to Michigan. Also, you may decide to try Chicago or another midwest market as well as NYC and end up liking some firm there. This favors Michigan.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby moneybagsphd » Wed May 30, 2012 2:24 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Michigan is cheaper (enough to win), cheaper COL, larger alumni base, has an older more established top legal brand, will place you in NYC just as well as Cornell, and gives you better options in Chicago and the rest of the Midwest as well as the rest of the country. If you get in, go to Michigan. Also, you may decide to try Chicago or another midwest market as well as NYC and end up liking some firm there. This favors Michigan.

This. Cornell is not worth one cent more than Michigan. At equal cost, I'd still take Michigan (that's just personal preference).

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buckilaw
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby buckilaw » Wed May 30, 2012 2:37 pm

FWIW I would be wary of any poll you put up now because people might be voting based on the waitlists that they are on. That said you can certainly get NYC biglaw from either school, I'm not familiar enough with Cornell's placement stats to give an informed opinion about the difference. What I can tell you is that intentionally going to a place that is more competitive isn't all sunshine and roses, when you need to kick back and have a beer with some friends Michigan shines, from what I've gather about Cornell nobody leaves the library till like 1:00am (I'm trolling, just a little, but still).

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 31, 2012 10:02 am

How much cheaper is Michigan?

If it's only marginally cheaper, I would still vote for Cornell as it is in the region you want and it attracts almost all of the firms from NYC (not just the NLJ ones).

If it is significantly cheaper, I would certainly go with Michigan.

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T00L
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby T00L » Thu May 31, 2012 10:22 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:How much cheaper is Michigan?

If it's only marginally cheaper, I would still vote for Cornell as it is in the region you want and it attracts almost all of the firms from NYC (not just the NLJ ones).

If it is significantly cheaper, I would certainly go with Michigan.


~4k/y

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sunynp
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby sunynp » Thu May 31, 2012 1:38 pm

You might want to consider the different placement outcomes from each school for the class of 2011 - based on rayiner's chart of UN-employment. I was surprised at how poorly Cornell did compared to some other schools. Based on the posts in this forum, I thought Cornell had a very high number of people in biglaw. I was mistaken.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723&start=50#p5551313

Also the LRAP at Michigan seems to be one of the best from what I read yesterday. You might want to consider this in making your decision.

I also agree that there is no real data that shows the firms go deeper into Cornell's class than Michigan's. I am not sure how to gauge that hiring level. The number of hires per firm in NYC doesn't work if Michigan alums are less likely to move to NYC, but I don't know how to substantiate that Michigan grads aren't trying as hard for NYC as the Cornell students. That more firms go to Cornell's OCI (which is it held in the city?) doesn't mean they will go deeper into the Cornell class than the Michigan class.

Right now it doesn't matter because you are only in at Cornell.

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Green Glass Windows
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby Green Glass Windows » Thu May 31, 2012 3:16 pm

sunynp wrote:You might want to consider the different placement outcomes from each school for the class of 2011 - based on rayiner's chart of UN-employment. I was surprised at how poorly Cornell did compared to some other schools. Based on the posts in this forum, I thought Cornell had a very high number of people in biglaw. I was mistaken.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723&start=50#p5551313

Also the LRAP at Michigan seems to be one of the best from what I read yesterday. You might want to consider this in making your decision.

I also agree that there is no real data that shows the firms go deeper into Cornell's class than Michigan's. I am not sure how to gauge that hiring level. The number of hires per firm in NYC doesn't work if Michigan alums are less likely to move to NYC, but I don't know how to substantiate that Michigan grads aren't trying as hard for NYC as the Cornell students. That more firms go to Cornell's OCI (which is it held in the city?) doesn't mean they will go deeper into the Cornell class than the Michigan class.

Right now it doesn't matter because you are only in at Cornell.


Yeah, I saw the placement outcomes for the class of 2011, and Cornell definitely took a dive from the previous year. Still, they had a higher percentage of the class in biglaw than Michigan.

And I realize I'm only in at Cornell, but Michigan emailed people on the waitlist a couple of days ago gauging interest. As T00L said, it seems like we have a decent chance. I don't want to have to make a flash decision should I actually get in, which is looking more likely.

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sunynp
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Re: Cornell vs Michigan

Postby sunynp » Thu May 31, 2012 3:21 pm

Green Glass Windows wrote:
sunynp wrote:You might want to consider the different placement outcomes from each school for the class of 2011 - based on rayiner's chart of UN-employment. I was surprised at how poorly Cornell did compared to some other schools. Based on the posts in this forum, I thought Cornell had a very high number of people in biglaw. I was mistaken.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723&start=50#p5551313

Also the LRAP at Michigan seems to be one of the best from what I read yesterday. You might want to consider this in making your decision.

I also agree that there is no real data that shows the firms go deeper into Cornell's class than Michigan's. I am not sure how to gauge that hiring level. The number of hires per firm in NYC doesn't work if Michigan alums are less likely to move to NYC, but I don't know how to substantiate that Michigan grads aren't trying as hard for NYC as the Cornell students. That more firms go to Cornell's OCI (which is it held in the city?) doesn't mean they will go deeper into the Cornell class than the Michigan class.

Right now it doesn't matter because you are only in at Cornell.


Yeah, I saw the placement outcomes for the class of 2011, and Cornell definitely took a dive from the previous year. Still, they had a higher percentage of the class in biglaw than Michigan.

And I realize I'm only in at Cornell, but Michigan emailed people on the waitlist a couple of days ago gauging interest. As T00L said, it seems like we have a decent chance. I don't want to have to make a flash decision should I actually get in, which is looking more likely.


I guess I was looking at the outcomes you can expect if you don't get biglaw. But I'm conservative and don't like to count on things happening in the best possible way.

I didn't know about the request for interest. Is it getting late in the year for Michigan to admit off the waitlist? It is very smart to figure out what you will choose if you get into Michigan. Good luck.




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