Picking MVP over CCN Forum

[birdlaw117]

This city practically costs $20 an hour just to exist. I love NYC as much as the next guy, but living here without an income sounds awful.

Lolwut? Not if you are an adult who cooks and generally employs restraint.

I spend about $2/hr on rent. And I sure as fuck don't spend $430/day on everything else.

[ahnhub]

NYC is your best bet for a firm job if you are from the northeast or DC (in which case you need to be very careful wbere you go to school because you have no home market that cares heavily about ties and is not populated with numerous top schools). But if you aren't then your chances at a firm job are generally going to be the same or better in whatever region your from than in NYC. I and many of my classmates learned that this past recruiting season. Many of the big NYC firms have extremely hard cutoffs that they simply will not go below regardless. Firms in secondary markets will often dip below hard line grade cutoffs for home town people who attend a top 14--esecially if that top 14 is in that secondary region.

I'm trying to analyze what you're saying here. Are you saying that NYC firms will go below hard curves for people with ties to the northeast, or that people with ties to NYC are actually kind of screwed because they're seen as no different for NYC purposes and have no home market to fall back on?

Are you also saying that those who don't come from a place with a big legal market (say, Kansas) have much-reduced employment prospects from those who do (say, Nashville or Atlanta)?

[birdlaw117]

I think he's basically saying that since ties don't matter to get a job in the northeast, those people don't have the second route of getting a job that, say, someone from Texas has.

In the same sense, someone from a market with no legal community also doesn't have this second route to a job.

This is a little oversimplified but I think it's BruceWayne's point (outside of the typical anti-NYC trolling we get from him).

[rickgrimes69]

This city practically costs $20 an hour just to exist. I love NYC as much as the next guy, but living here without an income sounds awful.

Lolwut? Not if you are an adult who cooks and generally employs restraint.

I spend about $2/hr on rent. And I sure as fuck don't spend $430/day on everything else.

Because I wasn't using hyperbole at all

In all seriousness, NYC is a great city but living here without an income sounds really stressful. I'm know people do it all the time, I just know I wouldn't want to be one of them.

[PennBull]

Outside of that NYU is no different from UVA, Michigan, Boalt, or Duke etc. It's dominant in it's home market and it can get you a firm job in other major markets but not any better than any other top 14 school except maybe GULC.

You need to clarify this point. Do you mean NYU is no better in placing students in locations outside of New York City than lower T14s? Or, do you mean NYU is no better in placing students in biglaw firms period?

Because if you mean the latter, no.

[moonman157]

I swear a third of these threads are spent arguing over whether NYU belongs in the CCN ranking (biglaw placement! V10 in NYC! no recognition outside of NYC! PI focus! Faculty!).

[rayiner]

I disagree with BruceWayne that NYU is only better if you're from the NE. If I were below median and from Michigan, I'd rather be gunning for NYC firms from NYU than Chicago or Detroit firms from Michigan. There are more people with ties to secondary markets that there are jobs for them.

The safety factor for NYU really comes for the bottom third of the class. NYC has a lot of smaller offices of out-of-town firms that will hire below-median NYU students. Secondary markets don't have as many of these firms, and the good firms in these markets may prefer to hire top of the class at the local TT.

[BruceWayne]

I'm typing this up while working so bear with me but the bolded is what I meant. Looking back at my post I can see how it could be misunderstood. Everything that I'm bolding is what I meant.

quote="ahnhub"]I'm trying to analyze what you're saying here. Are you saying that NYC firms will go below hard curves for people with ties to the northeast, or that people with ties to NYC are actually kind of screwed because they're seen as no different for NYC purposes and have no home market to fall back on?

The bolded above is one of the unfortunate realities for people from that part of the country. You guys basically should be thinking HYS CCN Penn or bust. Even Cornell would make me uncomfortable but I could see it. I hate to say this but don't attend Michigan, UVA, Boalt, Duke etc. if you can avoid it or without a big scholly if you're from DC or the NE. The people I know with those regions who got bad to middling grades got screwed--bad (for the most part). Hell some of them with good grades got scewed while I got a job with much worse grades because my school has huge pull in my home market whereas it doesn't in the NE or DC unless you have good grades (apparently this wasn't the case before the crash though).

If someone from the NE or DC asked me what to choose between NYU and UVA I would tell them to RUN, not walk, to NYU barring something less than a full or close to full scholarship to UVA.

I think he's basically saying that since ties don't matter to get a job in the northeast, those people don't have the second route of getting a job that, say, someone from Texas has.
In the same sense, someone from a market with no legal community also doesn't have this second route to a job.

Yes the bolded is what I'm saying.

You need to clarify this point. Do you mean NYU is no better in placing students in locations outside of New York City than lower T14s? Or, do you mean NYU is no better in placing students in biglaw firms period?

Because if you mean the latter, no.

Yes that's exactly what I mean.

[indigomachine]

I swear a third of these threads are spent arguing over whether NYU belongs in the CCN ranking (biglaw placement! V10 in NYC! no recognition outside of NYC! PI focus! Faculty!).

NYU... sadly lacking in rigor...

[yngblkgifted]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option[/b]. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

I doubt it gets friendlier than UVA. Is it competitive? Damn right. Is it intense? You bet. But this is because 1) these are completive people with 3.85 and 170's who are graded on a curve (naturally it will be competitive) 2) People aren't dumb and know it's hard out there job-wise. Despite all of this, I genuinely feel like UVA has been a great experience academically AND socially. Extraordinarily competitive? Compared to any liberal arts undergrad program, sure. But relative to law schools? That's a joke. I bet UVA (maybe Berkeley) is the closest thing to rainbows in the Top 10. After being here for a year, there is a reason that 51 percent of our Alums give back to the school.


After visiting and hearing stories about other schools, I will say that we do seem to be having more fun. Does that mean one should pick UVA over Columbia? No. But you also shouldn't discount the very real advantages to being in the type of collegial environment that UVA has to offer. I truly believe that some environments are more conducive to learning and for me, UVA was it. I picked UVA over a CCN and haven't looked back since. TBF, I was getting more money..but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN. I don't merely tolerate my classmates, I actually enjoy them. They've become like family and for me, intangible things like that go a long way. Law school sucks no matter where you go, but the type of people you surround yourself with can positively affect your experience which can affect your ultimate success in general. And trust me, law school sucks, but I'm glad I endured at UVA - it made for a much better 1L.

Your happiness >>> What some TLSers have to say.

Haters gonna hate, OP. I'm excited to see you this fall and I know you'll love UVA.

You have no idea if that is true.

I have an idea brah.

[birdlaw117]

If there's one thing I know for sure, it's that if I would have spent just one semester at UVA I probably maybe could have really disliked it.

[PennBull]

but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN.

You have no idea if that is true.

I have an idea brah.

It's aight to be a homer for your own school, but don't go around bashing other schools that you don't attend based on crappy anecdotal evidence.

[Renne Walker]

Nah, wish we could put them in a time machine and have them bash to their hearts content! I’d rather be in a class with only 10 cohorts. Plus, it would have made a SA less challenging. Speaking of SA, nearly all the SA’s I work with (or know) are from the T-6, other than two from Penn and one from BU ― we’ll just keep that a secret.

[swoozie]

I chose Penn over NYU/Chi for a $ difference small enough that I bet most people here would think I made the wrong decision. When I was making the decision I had some users nice enough to mail me saying they made a similar decision. You definitely aren't alone and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut.

I'll always have some regret over giving up Chi (hopefully it STAYS "some" and doesn't turn into "a lot") but for now, I feel like I made the right decision.

[StrictlyBusiness]

I flirted with the idea of taking Northwestern or Duke over Chicago for a small dollar difference ($30k) because I just liked the atmospheres and locations more than I liked Hyde Park. Then a few people slapped me with this advice below:

I don't get it. Law school is temporary. You're only there for six semesters and you can go wherever you want (or wherever there are jobs) during the summers/breaks etc.

Unless you think that the big city environmetn will negatively affect your performance, I would not choose a school based on where you want to live for 3/4 of the year for 3 years.

It also depends on the schools. If you're talking NYU/Penn then it's a tossup. If you're CLS/ M or V then I, personally, would not factor in location.

The more I read on TLS and actually think about it, I think I'm making the clear choice for my long-term success/happiness.

As for the suggestion that you might perform better because you like the area/school and are happier, I think this would be the opposite for most/me. Cold and nothing to do in Hyde Park- might as well study. Pools open in March at Duke- not a chance I'd be in the library.

[rayiner]

I chose Penn over NYU/Chi for a $ difference small enough that I bet most people here would think I made the wrong decision. When I was making the decision I had some users nice enough to mail me saying they made a similar decision. You definitely aren't alone and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut.

I'll always have some regret over giving up Chi (hopefully it STAYS "some" and doesn't turn into "a lot") but for now, I feel like I made the right decision.

It's not really clear that Penn with any money at all isn't a better decision than NYU even discounting location. Looking at the last several years of employment data, I think CCNP MVBDNC is the right tiering for NYC. ITE, when NYC is the market with the most jobs, I think that's the right tiering overall too.

[Zionman]

Honestly, I go CCN over MVP all day, everyday. My 2c

[yngblkgifted]

but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN.

You have no idea if that is true.

I have an idea brah.

It's aight to be a homer for your own school, but don't go around bashing other schools that you don't attend based on crappy anecdotal evidence.

Or else what? People from CCN can just say back "well, I go to a better school/have a "better" shot at big law." I think all the boys and girls are big enough to handle a comment like that. Besides I do have an idea, that's why I decided not to go. Sure, Maybe I would have enjoyed it more, but based on factors that were specific to my personality and my situation, I'm glad I picked UVA. If I offended anyone at CNN for my comment, I truly think you need to grow up.

[alirod12]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

This seems like its coming from someone who is not enjoying himself at UVa, probably a nerd or someone with a chip on their shoulder about getting bad grades or something. I am a huge hater, and I think it is an amazing place to go to law school, especially when I hear people discuss how much they hate their time at Chicago/Columbia. Many people will tell you that UVa really is different, and IMHO it is true. I have not found it to be competitive in the slightest. I share my outlines with anyone who asks, and people who are at the top of the class share their outlines with me. Sure 1L is fairly intense, but really nothing too bad.

[PennBull]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

This seems like its coming from someone who is not enjoying himself at UVa, probably a nerd or someone with a chip on their shoulder about getting bad grades or something. I am a huge hater, and I think it is an amazing place to go to law school, especially when I hear people discuss how much they hate their time at Chicago/Columbia. Many people will tell you that UVa really is different, and IMHO it is true. I have not found it to be competitive in the slightest. I share my outlines with anyone who asks, and people who are at the top of the class share their outlines with me. Sure 1L is fairly intense, but really nothing too bad.

He wasn't saying Virginia was a shitty school and OP shouldn't go there because of the environment. He was suggesting that if OP wants to work in NYC, there are better schools for him. Read the whole post, bro.

[IAFG]

Ah the classic "criticize your school -> you must have gotten bad grades" argument. With a little "even if your grades are good, you must be a loser" for good measure.

[PennBull]

Ah the classic "criticize your school -> you must have gotten bad grades" argument. With a little "even if your grades are good, you must be a loser" for good measure.

I can't tell if it's better than the "your school sucks because the two people I know who went there are hating it" arguments.

[rayiner]

Ah the classic "criticize your school -> you must have gotten bad grades" argument. With a little "even if your grades are good, you must be a loser" for good measure.

I can't tell if it's better than the "your school sucks because the two people I know who went there are hating it" arguments.

Seriously that argument is so lame. It's one thing to say you really like UVA after going there, but saying you'd hate going somewhere else having never been there is silly, especially if you're not talking about something like hating living in NY which you might have experience with.

[BruceWayne]

This seems like its coming from someone who is not enjoying himself at UVa, probably a nerd or someone with a chip on their shoulder about getting bad grades or something. I am a huge hater, and I think it is an amazing place to go to law school, especially when I hear people discuss how much they hate their time at Chicago/Columbia. Many people will tell you that UVa really is different, and IMHO it is true. I have not found it to be competitive in the slightest. I share my outlines with anyone who asks, and people who are at the top of the class share their outlines with me. Sure 1L is fairly intense, but really nothing too bad.

LOL at "not enjoying myself at UVA because I'm a nerd"? Are you serious--do you know how oxymoronic that statement is? I hate to break this to you, but if you dont' think UVA (or any other top 14 for that matter) is nerdy you aren't just the pot calling the kettle Black--you're Wesley Snipes calling Denzel black. Yeah UVA isn't nerdy for a top 14 (and honestly as somenoe who had never been to a top institution or been involved with people from them before to me it's not noticeable--I think it's pretty damn nerdy. People at my ugrad gym weren't talking about Nietzsche while they were lifting...whoever the hell that is ...) from what people tell me but that's not saying much.
And as far as me liking UVA or not. It may have been intense but I can't say anything negative about it--I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten my current job from a local school or honestly even some of the rest of the top 14.

Besides all I said was that UVA isn't the best choice for someone interested in working in NYC if they can go to NYU. I'm sorry telling someone who wants to work in New York City to attend New York University hurts your feelings so badly.

[PennBull]

Ah the classic "criticize your school -> you must have gotten bad grades" argument. With a little "even if your grades are good, you must be a loser" for good measure.

I can't tell if it's better than the "your school sucks because the two people I know who went there are hating it" arguments.

Seriously that argument is so lame. It's one thing to say you really like UVA after going there, but saying you'd hate going somewhere else having never been there is silly, especially if you're not talking about something like hating living in NY which you might have experience with.

Truth. I'm the biggest Penn homer ever, but I haven't done 1L at a different law school. All I tell people is that I don't think it gets any better than what you get at Penn (save for the relevant employment differences as you go up the rankings, obv), so they can take their chances going somewhere else and it might be worse, or they can go to Penn and get guaranteed awesome.