Picking MVP over CCN

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PennBull
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby PennBull » Wed May 30, 2012 10:59 am

birdlaw117 wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

If geographical preference is your priority over serious career concerns, and major urban settings are not your preference, you are making a terrible mistake going to law school at all.


This outrageous comment really seems to capture the mentality of TLS

It's not like picking a T50 over Harvard

Not really. This isn't like choosing your undergrad school. Sure, location can be a factor, but it shouldn't be a priority. It's a decision about how to best start your career, since it is a professional school and all. And the fact of the matter is NYU's job placement power advantage over UVA is real.

Now, if you still choose UVA in this situation that's fine. But don't try and say it's a rational decision when it will likely have a negative impact on your career (which is a lot longer than the 3/4 of 3 years you spend at school).


The counterargument to this is going to be the famous "I just feel like I'd be happier and so I'll do better." I can't really rationalize it, because one should be mentally stable and socially deft enough to work well at either school--especially law school. With the employment situation the way it is, location/environment shouldn't be a priority, so I agree with you.

tl; dr: +1

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birdlaw117
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed May 30, 2012 11:00 am

Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.

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PennBull
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby PennBull » Wed May 30, 2012 11:03 am

birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.


Cost of living with no income comes to mind; can't really enjoy NYC to the fullest without a bit of $, but both are things that are absurd to be the definitive factors to choosing a law school.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 30, 2012 11:05 am

Have people not mentioned NYC COL? It doesn't even make sense to do NYU at sticker because of it.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed May 30, 2012 11:07 am

PennBull wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.


Cost of living with no income comes to mind; can't really enjoy NYC to the fullest without a bit of $, but both are things that are absurd to be the definitive factors to choosing a law school.

Idk, I lived way under budget this past year without even trying. And I went to all sorts of things like musicals, concerts, sports games, etc.

But OP makes it sound like it is the enjoyment factor, or lack there of, that makes him concerned about NY. Being a student in NYC is awesome. And you have the time to actually enjoy the city, as opposed to working there as a first year associate.

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PennBull
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby PennBull » Wed May 30, 2012 11:07 am

Tom Joad wrote:Have people not mentioned NYC COL? It doesn't even make sense to do NYU at sticker because of it.


If you were choosing between UVA and NYU at sticker, would you choose UVA because of it?

(If you're risk averse and would say neither, pretend you had a gun to your head and had to choose for the sake of argument).

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Tom Joad
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 30, 2012 11:09 am

PennBull wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:Have people not mentioned NYC COL? It doesn't even make sense to do NYU at sticker because of it.


If you were choosing between UVA and NYU at sticker, would you choose UVA because of it?

(If you're risk averse and would say neither, pretend you had a gun to your head and had to choose for the sake of argument).

I would definitely say neither, but I guess I would grimace and say NYU in your scenario. It must suck to be a splitter.

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kwais
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby kwais » Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 am

birdlaw117 wrote:
PennBull wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.


Cost of living with no income comes to mind; can't really enjoy NYC to the fullest without a bit of $, but both are things that are absurd to be the definitive factors to choosing a law school.

Idk, I lived way under budget this past year without even trying. And I went to all sorts of things like musicals, concerts, sports games, etc.

But OP makes it sound like it is the enjoyment factor, or lack there of, that makes him concerned about NY. Being a student in NYC is awesome. And you have the time to actually enjoy the city, as opposed to working there as a first year associate.


+1 There is plenty of time to enjoy NYC as a student. NYC has lots of free and cheap entertainment, not to mention just going to certain areas for a beer is a hell of a good time that costs you all of 6(beer) and 4(train).

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PennBull
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby PennBull » Wed May 30, 2012 11:11 am

birdlaw117 wrote:I lived way under budget this past year without even trying. And I went to all sorts of things like musicals, concerts, sports games, etc.


Yeah I will agree it takes a special kind of failure to not be under the COL budget a school gives you.

birdlaw117 wrote:But OP makes it sound like it is the enjoyment factor, or lack there of, that makes him concerned about NY. Being a student in NYC is awesome. And you have the time to actually enjoy the city, as opposed to working there as a first year associate.


Definitely. This is why I plan on living a little looser my 3L year, because I plan on being on lockdown for 1 or two years when I first start working.
Last edited by PennBull on Wed May 30, 2012 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed May 30, 2012 11:13 am

kwais wrote:+1 There is plenty of time to enjoy NYC as a student. NYC has lots of free and cheap entertainment, not to mention just going to certain areas for a beer is a hell of a good time that costs you all of 6(beer) and 4(train).

And just 6 if you're already in the village :wink:

Oh wait, there's that whole rent difference thing :(

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kwais
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby kwais » Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am

birdlaw117 wrote:
kwais wrote:+1 There is plenty of time to enjoy NYC as a student. NYC has lots of free and cheap entertainment, not to mention just going to certain areas for a beer is a hell of a good time that costs you all of 6(beer) and 4(train).

And just 6 if you're already in the village :wink:

Oh wait, there's that whole rent difference thing :(


haha, indeed. It all evens out (depending on your drinking prowess)

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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby rayiner » Wed May 30, 2012 11:23 am

Tom Joad wrote:Have people not mentioned NYC COL? It doesn't even make sense to do NYU at sticker because of it.


So you're going to put a price tag on the NYC COL, but not on the reduced big law chances from UVA? Hint: the latter is a lot more $$ than the former.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 30, 2012 11:28 am

rayiner wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:Have people not mentioned NYC COL? It doesn't even make sense to do NYU at sticker because of it.


So you're going to put a price tag on the NYC COL, but not on the reduced big law chances from UVA? Hint: the latter is a lot more $$ than the former.

In my next post I said I would shy away from taking UVA sticker as well and if I was forced to choose either at sticker I would take NYU. I am not totally in the bubble.

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IAFG
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby IAFG » Wed May 30, 2012 11:32 am

birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.

And that's really my point. If you just can't stand big urban cities, and this sentiment is more important to you than giving yourself an appreciable career edge, law isn't a great field for you. I say this as someone who longs for the pacific northwest but chose law over geographic preference. If I loved Oregon a little more than I do, I would be very miserable instead of just a little sad.

I also question 0L's ability to value V10 over other biglaw, but that's a different discussion.

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chem
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby chem » Wed May 30, 2012 11:33 am

As someone who is going to UVA next year, and love UVA, Id have to also chime in to say that you are objectively making a mistake here, OP. However, if clerking is your goal, then its a whole different story

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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Real Madrid » Wed May 30, 2012 11:38 am

yngblkgifted wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!


As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option[/b]. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.


I doubt it gets friendlier than UVA. Is it competitive? Damn right. Is it intense? You bet. But this is because 1) these are completive people with 3.85 and 170's who are graded on a curve (naturally it will be competitive) 2) People aren't dumb and know it's hard out there job-wise. Despite all of this, I genuinely feel like UVA has been a great experience academically AND socially. Extraordinarily competitive? Compared to any liberal arts undergrad program, sure. But relative to law schools? That's a joke. I bet UVA (maybe Berkeley) is the closest thing to rainbows in the Top 10. After being here for a year, there is a reason that 51 percent of our Alums give back to the school.


After visiting and hearing stories about other schools, I will say that we do seem to be having more fun. Does that mean one should pick UVA over Columbia? No. But you also shouldn't discount the very real advantages to being in the type of collegial environment that UVA has to offer. I truly believe that some environments are more conducive to learning and for me, UVA was it. I picked UVA over a CCN and haven't looked back since. TBF, I was getting more money..but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN. I don't merely tolerate my classmates, I actually enjoy them. They've become like family and for me, intangible things like that go a long way. Law school sucks no matter where you go, but the type of people you surround yourself with can positively affect your experience which can affect your ultimate success in general. And trust me, law school sucks, but I'm glad I endured at UVA - it made for a much better 1L.

Your happiness >>> What some TLSers have to say.

Haters gonna hate, OP. I'm excited to see you this fall and I know you'll love UVA.


Lol, let's be honest here. UVA games the rankings like nobody's business, so while almost everyone has a really high GPA or LSAT, most don't have both.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Renne Walker » Wed May 30, 2012 11:48 am

To oversimplify. It’s about (i) School and (ii) Grades. Go to YSH, if that is not possible then CCN, then PVB and on down the line. If every T-14 grad landed a law firm job, they would fill 4,200 of all openings, leaving 15,800 openings for everyone else. If 75% of grads from schools 15-50 found employment, that would account for another 7,900 jobs. Thus, Tier-2 and further down are left with 7,900 openings for their 37,500 grads.

Estimates notwithstanding, that is the gist of it. Reach higher.

In ref to NYC COL. If not for a dream living arrangement and a tuition break, I could not swing NYC. Great place, but it is damn expensive.

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chem
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby chem » Wed May 30, 2012 11:50 am

Renne Walker wrote:To oversimplify. It’s about (i) School and (ii) Grades. Go to YSH, if that is not possible then CCN, then PVB and on down the line. If every T-14 grad landed a law firm job, they would fill 4,200 of all openings, leaving 15,800 openings for everyone else. If 75% of grads from schools 15-50 found employment, that would account for another 7,900 jobs. Thus, Tier-2 and further down are left with 7,900 openings for their 37,500 grads.

Estimates notwithstanding, that is the gist of it. Reach higher.

In ref to NYC COL. If not for a dream living arrangement and a tuition break, I could not swing NYC. Great place, but it is damn expensive.


:lol:

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed May 30, 2012 12:00 pm

PBV? It's NPB.

YSH, CC, NPB, NMVDC, G.

All jokes aside, that's not a bad description.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:PBV? It's NPB.

YSH, CC, NPB, NMVDC, G.

All jokes aside, that's not a bad description.

Kind of silly to separate B and V.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed May 30, 2012 12:19 pm

kwais wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
PennBull wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I don't understand the whole "I want to work in NYC but I would never want to be a student there" thing.


Cost of living with no income comes to mind; can't really enjoy NYC to the fullest without a bit of $, but both are things that are absurd to be the definitive factors to choosing a law school.

Idk, I lived way under budget this past year without even trying. And I went to all sorts of things like musicals, concerts, sports games, etc.

But OP makes it sound like it is the enjoyment factor, or lack there of, that makes him concerned about NY. Being a student in NYC is awesome. And you have the time to actually enjoy the city, as opposed to working there as a first year associate.


+1 There is plenty of time to enjoy NYC as a student. NYC has lots of free and cheap entertainment, not to mention just going to certain areas for a beer is a hell of a good time that costs you all of 6(beer) and 4(train).


This city practically costs $20 an hour just to exist. I love NYC as much as the next guy, but living here without an income sounds awful.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed May 30, 2012 12:26 pm

Living everywhere without an income sucks compared to with an income. But let's not pretend like tuition at all these places isn't the biggest expense or that a 7k/yr difference should be a huge factor when considering a 225k investment.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby BruceWayne » Wed May 30, 2012 12:27 pm

Although I agree that the OP should choose NYU over UVA it isn't because NYU has objectively better placement--it doesn't. The people that are saying that are going to the extreme. OP should pick NYU over UVA because of his particular interests and his ties. NYU isn't like HYS or even Columbia/Chicago in terms of objectively outdoing UVA for a job. If you want a job in NYC then sure NYU will do you better (which describes the OP) but let's be real--if you don't then they're the same. The people who post like crazy on this website came up with the whole thing about NYU being in a separate league from the rest of the top 14 schools outside of HYS based on US News rankings. Outside of that NYU is no different from UVA, Michigan, Boalt, or Duke etc. It's dominant in it's home market and it can get you a firm job in other major markets but not any better than any other top 14 school except maybe GULC.

And a news flash for all the people who think that NYC is your best chance at getting a firm job regardless of who you are--it's NOT. That's something that's been repeated on here ad nauseam but it's a lot more complex than that. NYC is your best bet for a firm job if you are from the northeast or DC (in which case you need to be very careful wbere you go to school because you have no home market that cares heavily about ties and is not populated with numerous top schools). But if you aren't then your chances at a firm job are generally going to be the same or better in whatever region your from than in NYC. I and many of my classmates learned that this past recruiting season. Many of the big NYC firms have extremely hard cutoffs that they simply will not go below regardless. Firms in secondary markets will often dip below hard line grade cutoffs for home town people who attend a top 14--esecially if that top 14 is in that secondary region. A Southerner who attends UVA, or a person from the midwest who attends Michigan will likely have at least as good success in those markets than they will in NYC--and more if they have grades that fall below the NYC firms hard line cutoffs.

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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 30, 2012 12:30 pm

kwais wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
kwais wrote:+1 There is plenty of time to enjoy NYC as a student. NYC has lots of free and cheap entertainment, not to mention just going to certain areas for a beer is a hell of a good time that costs you all of 6(beer) and 4(train).

And just 6 if you're already in the village :wink:

Oh wait, there's that whole rent difference thing :(


haha, indeed. It all evens out (depending on your drinking prowess)


Quit drinking the summer before law school, it will make your first few months so much cheaper.

Although there's a fair amount of "free" (lol) alcohol at campus events.

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kwais
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby kwais » Wed May 30, 2012 12:33 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:This city practically costs $20 an hour just to exist. I love NYC as much as the next guy, but living here without an income sounds awful.

Lolwut? Not if you are an adult who cooks and generally employs restraint.




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