Picking MVP over CCN Forum

[09042014]

OP if you aren't trying to work in NYC or (for UChi) Chicago CCN really doesn't mean much, if anything, over other top 14 schools. The bottom line is that your 1L grades and ties will determine your job prospects between these schools. You have ties to California--the only other question is your grades. If you want NYC though, you should go to NYU regardless of how you feel about weather etc.

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I picked- it's Virginia

Wahoowa!

If I had to guess I'd say it really only hurts your chances at NYC v20 who recruit massively from ccn.

[BruceWayne]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

[Real Madrid]

What are the many reasons NYU underperforms on NLJ?

Also, not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to your 80% number (other than anecdotal evidence on TLS)? And what percentage of students actually did participate?

It really doesn't. http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

There is no good way to incorporate this knowledge. Presumably similar issues impact other schools? You can't just add 58 students to NYU's total. What we really want to see is NYU's own 2011 OCI data, to compare with other schools.

For someone choosing amongst the non-HYS T14 for this cycle, the big thing is uncertainty. It's plausible that M and V's 2011 performance was a fluke caused by slow-reacting OCS. It is also possible that it's the new normal, cause by these schools not having real home markets.

The same issue existed in 2010 and appeared to only materially impact Harvard, Columbia and NYU. Columbia is the only one of the three to release C/O 2011 data and they were once again hurt by the different methods NLJ uses. Still waiting on C/O 2011 numbers from the rest of the T-14 stragglers and as you said the OCI data helps too.

Your thread does show a clear advantage for NYU over at least M and V that matches up with what we saw in prior years. Given their legitimate claims to substantial PI self-selection I think we can say that for placement purposes CCN means something.

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

[Tiago Splitter]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Well sure when it turns in to a 2-on-1 and you get to combine the strengths of other schools NYU doesn't look as strong.

[rayiner]

OP if you aren't trying to work in NYC or (for UChi) Chicago CCN really doesn't mean much, if anything, over other top 14 schools. The bottom line is that your 1L grades and ties will determine your job prospects between these schools. You have ties to California--the only other question is your grades. If you want NYC though, you should go to NYU regardless of how you feel about weather etc.

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I picked- it's Virginia

Wahoowa!

If I had to guess I'd say it really only hurts your chances at NYC v20 who recruit massively from ccn getting big law.

[woeisme]

DCN can definitely make sense over MVP at equal cost... But DCNMVP over CCN is riskier, unless, for example, it's P over NYU and you're shooting for somewhere outside NYC.

[Greenandgold]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Well sure when it turns in to a 2-on-1 and you get to combine the strengths of other schools NYU doesn't look as strong.

And when you use rankings that we've just shown not to be an accurate reflection of each schools placing power.

[kwais]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Excellent point. And Harvard kinda sucks because Stanford has more clerkships, Yale has more academics, Pepperdine has better weather, Duke has better basketball and the University of Florence has cuter girls.

[monkey85]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Excellent point. And Harvard kinda sucks because Stanford has more clerkships, Yale has more academics, Pepperdine has better weather, Duke has better basketball and the University of Florence has cuter girls.

*grabs popcorn and waits for the show to begin*

[yngblkgifted]

OP if you aren't trying to work in NYC or (for UChi) Chicago CCN really doesn't mean much, if anything, over other top 14 schools. The bottom line is that your 1L grades and ties will determine your job prospects between these schools. You have ties to California--the only other question is your grades. If you want NYC though, you should go to NYU regardless of how you feel about weather etc.

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

Wahoowa, Bitches!

[dixiecupdrinking]

Probably should go to NYU if you want to work in NYC biglaw, but if you really hate the idea of living here for school but really want to work here for some reason then it's not a terrible, terrible decision. It is probably shortsighted.

And yeah NYU is overrated, etc., etc., maybe, maybe not. The 80% numbers are from OCS. Believe it or don't. The fact is, I really doubt that top 1/3 at Penn or Virginia is regularly placing into NYC V5 or V10 jobs. It is at NYU.

[yngblkgifted]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option[/b]. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

I doubt it gets friendlier than UVA. Is it competitive? Damn right. Is it intense? You bet. But this is because 1) these are completive people with 3.85 and 170's who are graded on a curve (naturally it will be competitive) 2) People aren't dumb and know it's hard out there job-wise. Despite all of this, I genuinely feel like UVA has been a great experience academically AND socially. Extraordinarily competitive? Compared to any liberal arts undergrad program, sure. But relative to law schools? That's a joke. I bet UVA (maybe Berkeley) is the closest thing to rainbows in the Top 10. After being here for a year, there is a reason that 51 percent of our Alums give back to the school.


After visiting and hearing stories about other schools, I will say that we do seem to be having more fun. Does that mean one should pick UVA over Columbia? No. But you also shouldn't discount the very real advantages to being in the type of collegial environment that UVA has to offer. I truly believe that some environments are more conducive to learning and for me, UVA was it. I picked UVA over a CCN and haven't looked back since. TBF, I was getting more money..but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN. I don't merely tolerate my classmates, I actually enjoy them. They've become like family and for me, intangible things like that go a long way. Law school sucks no matter where you go, but the type of people you surround yourself with can positively affect your experience which can affect your ultimate success in general. And trust me, law school sucks, but I'm glad I endured at UVA - it made for a much better 1L.

Your happiness >>> What some TLSers have to say.

Haters gonna hate, OP. I'm excited to see you this fall and I know you'll love UVA.

[sandiego222]

......

[Real Madrid]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Well sure when it turns in to a 2-on-1 and you get to combine the strengths of other schools NYU doesn't look as strong.

Where did it turn into a 2-on-1? One of the major arguments was that NYU's numbers in NLJ are misleading due to "PI self-selection." My point was that Penn dominated NYU by such a large margin in NLJ that that doesn't explain the discrepancy. And Berkeley had higher NLJ placement and a higher percentage in PI. So it wasn't really a 2-on-1 as much as 2 1-on-1s.

Look, I think NYU is a great school, I just think it is starting to fall behind Columbia and Chicago much like people are now arguing that Michigan is slipping.

[Real Madrid]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Excellent point. And Harvard kinda sucks because Stanford has more clerkships, Yale has more academics, Pepperdine has better weather, Duke has better basketball and the University of Florence has cuter girls.

Like you're interested in sports or girls.

[jkpolk]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

Also taking UVA > CCN. I'm sure >25% of the class makes this decision.

[IAFG]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

If geographical preference is your priority over serious career concerns, and major urban settings are not your preference, you are making a terrible mistake going to law school at all.

[rayiner]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

Also taking UVA > CCN. I'm sure >25% of the class makes this decision.

LOL no. Look at the people listed as "Accepted, Attending" who got less than $50k scholarship at UCA on LSN: http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... 00&type=jd.

UVA uses a splitter admissions policy. A lot of 173/3.3 or 163/3.9. These folks aren't getting into CLS or Chicago, and while NYU has been taking a few high-LSAT splitters this cycle, it still has an LSAT floor around 169 for high-GPA splitters. UVA maintains a 170/3.85 median by giving scholarships to non-splitters. They do not throw around enough scholarship money to field a class that is > 25% CCN admits.

[BKB]

Penn dominated NYU in NLJ this year and Berkeley placed more in PI in the most recent class than NYU.

Well sure when it turns in to a 2-on-1 and you get to combine the strengths of other schools NYU doesn't look as strong.

Where did it turn into a 2-on-1? One of the major arguments was that NYU's numbers in NLJ are misleading due to "PI self-selection." My point was that Penn dominated NYU by such a large margin in NLJ that that doesn't explain the discrepancy. And Berkeley had higher NLJ placement and a higher percentage in PI. So it wasn't really a 2-on-1 as much as 2 1-on-1s.

Look, I think NYU is a great school, I just think it is starting to fall behind Columbia and Chicago much like people are now arguing that Michigan is slipping.

No large margin if we look at school's statistics.
http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
Percentage of 100+ firm:
08 09 10
Penn 0.74 0.69 0.59
NYU 0.69 0.67 0.57

[kwais]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

Also taking UVA > CCN. I'm sure >25% of the class makes this decision.

at even money? you are dreaming

[rayiner]

Considering NY, DC (have worked 3 years there after graduation), or returning to CA

Not exactly sure at this point

While I'm leaning NY, I don't think UVA will lock me out of NY by any means

Anyway, I've made up my mind- sticking with Virginia

Wahoowa!

As a UVA student I'll be honest and I will say that if you're leaning NYC work this isn't a good idea. You are right that UVA will not lock you out of NYC assuming that your grades are above bottom 1/3 (a BIG assumption) but if you're leaning NYC it just doesn't make sense to go to UVA. I mean NYU really is the better choice here for 3 reasons: 1) NYU is going to do substantially better than UVA in NYC and it's your first choice 2. You have ties to Cali which makes NYU and UVA interchangeable for you if you decide to go there and 3. NYU is going to be the same for working in DC. UVA's major strength comes from it's good DC and NYC placement, essentially best Southern placement, and good secondary market placement for those with ties to the secondary market. For your needs/desires UVA isn't the best option[/b]. But good luck either way. Finally, I hope you aren't pickign UVA because of some image of rainbows and butterflies. While people aren't mean, it is a very intense school with extraordinarily competitive and intense students (who are oftentimes awkward). But I'm sure the rest of the top schools are the same.

I doubt it gets friendlier than UVA. Is it competitive? Damn right. Is it intense? You bet. But this is because 1) these are completive people with 3.85 and 170's who are graded on a curve (naturally it will be competitive) 2) People aren't dumb and know it's hard out there job-wise. Despite all of this, I genuinely feel like UVA has been a great experience academically AND socially. Extraordinarily competitive? Compared to any liberal arts undergrad program, sure. But relative to law schools? That's a joke. I bet UVA (maybe Berkeley) is the closest thing to rainbows in the Top 10. After being here for a year, there is a reason that 51 percent of our Alums give back to the school.


After visiting and hearing stories about other schools, I will say that we do seem to be having more fun. Does that mean one should pick UVA over Columbia? No. But you also shouldn't discount the very real advantages to being in the type of collegial environment that UVA has to offer. I truly believe that some environments are more conducive to learning and for me, UVA was it. I picked UVA over a CCN and haven't looked back since. TBF, I was getting more money..but thank God I picked UVA. I would have hated myself/life at that CCN. I don't merely tolerate my classmates, I actually enjoy them. They've become like family and for me, intangible things like that go a long way. Law school sucks no matter where you go, but the type of people you surround yourself with can positively affect your experience which can affect your ultimate success in general. And trust me, law school sucks, but I'm glad I endured at UVA - it made for a much better 1L.

Your happiness >>> What some TLSers have to say.

Haters gonna hate, OP. I'm excited to see you this fall and I know you'll love UVA.

You have no idea if that is true.

[jkpolk]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

Also taking UVA > CCN. I'm sure >25% of the class makes this decision.

LOL no. Look at the people listed as "Accepted, Attending" who got less than $50k scholarship at UCA on LSN: http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... 00&type=jd.

UVA uses a splitter admissions policy. A lot of 173/3.3 or 163/3.9. These folks aren't getting into CLS or Chicago, and while NYU has been taking a few high-LSAT splitters this cycle, it still has an LSAT floor around 169 for high-GPA splitters. UVA maintains a 170/3.85 median by giving scholarships to non-splitters. They do not throw around enough scholarship money to field a class that is > 25% CCN admits.

I'm not talking about even money- just in general. What do you think is a better estimate for % of UVA matriculants who had offers from CCN?

[sandiego222]

......

[birdlaw117]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

If geographical preference is your priority over serious career concerns, and major urban settings are not your preference, you are making a terrible mistake going to law school at all.

This outrageous comment really seems to capture the mentality of TLS

It's not like picking a T50 over Harvard

Not really. This isn't like choosing your undergrad school. Sure, location can be a factor, but it shouldn't be a priority. It's a decision about how to best start your career, since it is a professional school and all. And the fact of the matter is NYU's job placement power advantage over UVA is real.

Now, if you still choose UVA in this situation that's fine. But don't try and say it's a rational decision when it will likely have a negative impact on your career (which is a lot longer than the 3/4 of 3 years you spend at school).

[rayiner]

Thanks for the response. For me, happiness is not having a greater shot at getting a V10 2L offer- I guess some peoples' opinions on TLS differ, and I'm sure it makes sense for them to pick Penn or NYU in this situation

If geographical preference is your priority over serious career concerns, and major urban settings are not your preference, you are making a terrible mistake going to law school at all.

This outrageous comment really seems to capture the mentality of TLS

It's not like picking a T50 over Harvard

The "mentality of TLS" is that:

1) OP isn't getting any more money at UVA than at NYU;
2) $150k+ of debt is a lot of fucking debt;
3) It's not like NYU is full of TTT gunners while UVA is all softball and ponies;
4) There is a substantial safety-net advantage to NYU;
5) Nearly all the legal jobs are in major urban areas like NYC or DC.

(2) means you need to get big law, and (5) means that to ensure you get big law as a practical matter you have to target NYC. OP clearly realizes this, and seems to be leaning NYC for where he wants to work after graduation. In that context, why give up the substantial advantage NYU has in NYC for an entirely imagined and exaggerated cultural difference?

People ITT really underestimate the importance of NYC. Last year, NYC had 2,000+ SA positions, probably 1/3 of all the six-figure SA positions in the country. The V10 had almost 1,000 SA positions out of those 2,000. It might be the case that NYU really only helps you in the V10 in NYC, but that's a huge fucking portion of the whole market.

Even a 10% improvement in big law chances has a huge monetary value when you consider that the difference between getting big law and not getting it might be a million dollars or two over one's career. 10% of $1 million = $100k. That is what you're giving up choosing UVA over NYU for the same money. You're essentially giving up $100k to get better weather for three years.