Picking MVP over CCN

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sandiego222
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Picking MVP over CCN

Postby sandiego222 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:05 am

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Last edited by sandiego222 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

justicefishy
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby justicefishy » Tue May 29, 2012 11:19 am

From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.

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rayiner
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby rayiner » Tue May 29, 2012 11:21 am

sandiego222 wrote:This is a choice I'm currently making, despite a similar scholarship from CCN (though with a higher cost of living)

I really think I will enjoy the lifestyle of the MVP school significantly more than the New York/ Chicago atmosphere and big-city urban living, as well as the collegiality I've seen at all three of MVP. I hope it will positively affect the way I learn and get involved with law

Is this a crazy decision?? I'm hoping to eventually work for a big firm after school, but I really want to go with MVP. Anyone have personal experience with a similar decision?


Unless the "MVP" in question is Penn, I think it's a pretty risky decision without more scholarship money. C/O 2011 did much worse at M and V than at CLS or P, and it's not clear what things look like going forward.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue May 29, 2012 11:24 am

If Penn, then maybe, but since you're talking about an atmosphere that's more prevalent at M and V, I'm guessing you're talking about one of those. CCN will get you a good job from lower in the class from either of these schools, so objectively, it's the wrong decision, but subjectively to your situation, I can't say.

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kwais
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby kwais » Tue May 29, 2012 11:26 am

justicefishy wrote:From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.


On what planet does median at Michigan have similar bigfirm opportunities as Columbia? Yes, a person can make this decision for many reasons, but not this one. Don't throw out irresponsible advice

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue May 29, 2012 11:28 am

kwais wrote:
justicefishy wrote:From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.


On what planet does median at Michigan have similar bigfirm opportunities as Columbia? Yes, a person can make this decision for many reasons, but not this one. Don't throw out irresponsible advice

yeah, the only place where they are basically equivalent wrt job prospects is near the very top of the class

justicefishy
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby justicefishy » Tue May 29, 2012 11:31 am

kwais wrote:
justicefishy wrote:From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.


On what planet does median at Michigan have similar bigfirm opportunities as Columbia? Yes, a person can make this decision for many reasons, but not this one. Don't throw out irresponsible advice


The same planet where Virginia's got about equal placement to NYU (according to the most recent NLJ250 report). If the OP had given specific schools then I'd have given more specific advice. From what he was talking about, it seemed like he was picking V and, unless it was Columbia he was talking about, both Chicago and NYU offer very close biglaw placement (within 5% or so).

redbullvodka
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby redbullvodka » Tue May 29, 2012 11:37 am

justicefishy wrote:
kwais wrote:
justicefishy wrote:From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.


On what planet does median at Michigan have similar bigfirm opportunities as Columbia? Yes, a person can make this decision for many reasons, but not this one. Don't throw out irresponsible advice


The same planet where Virginia's got about equal placement to NYU (according to the most recent NLJ250 report). If the OP had given specific schools then I'd have given more specific advice. From what he was talking about, it seemed like he was picking V and, unless it was Columbia he was talking about, both Chicago and NYU offer very close biglaw placement (within 5% or so).


This is also off. The Chicago/NYU similarity specifically refers to this past year. If you average over the last 5 or so (a better measure, I think, since the economy is on the uptick to somewhere in between that year and the boom times), Chicago and Columbia are more similar, with NYU lagging behind them (with the exception being V10 placement in NYC).

justicefishy
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby justicefishy » Tue May 29, 2012 11:51 am

redbullvodka wrote:
justicefishy wrote:
kwais wrote:
justicefishy wrote:From what I've seen here, CCN only really matters at the top with V10 firms and the best PI positions (though you're certainly not locked out of them by attending MVP). At median, however, CCN and MVP are pretty similar for big firm placement. If you like an MVP better, it's not a stupid decision at all.


On what planet does median at Michigan have similar bigfirm opportunities as Columbia? Yes, a person can make this decision for many reasons, but not this one. Don't throw out irresponsible advice


The same planet where Virginia's got about equal placement to NYU (according to the most recent NLJ250 report). If the OP had given specific schools then I'd have given more specific advice. From what he was talking about, it seemed like he was picking V and, unless it was Columbia he was talking about, both Chicago and NYU offer very close biglaw placement (within 5% or so).


This is also off. The Chicago/NYU similarity specifically refers to this past year. If you average over the last 5 or so (a better measure, I think, since the economy is on the uptick to somewhere in between that year and the boom times), Chicago and Columbia are more similar, with NYU lagging behind them (with the exception being V10 placement in NYC).


Legit then. OP, disregard my advice! Go to CCN unless you're at P!

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swc65
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby swc65 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:57 am

I don't get it. Law school is temporary. You're only there for six semesters and you can go wherever you want (or wherever there are jobs) during the summers/breaks etc.

Unless you think that the big city environmetn will negatively affect your performance, I would not choose a school based on where you want to live for 3/4 of the year for 3 years.

It also depends on the schools. If you're talking NYU/Penn then it's a tossup. If you're CLS/ M or V then I, personally, would not factor in location.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Renne Walker » Tue May 29, 2012 12:19 pm

swc65 wrote:If you're talking NYU/Penn then it's a tossup.

+1. Seems to be the case. The difference might be a slight advantage to T-6 over PBV when it comes to grades that are in the median "danger zone." Actually, I do not know how "B" figures into the NYC scene (but they likely do. . . ditto "V").

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kwais
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby kwais » Tue May 29, 2012 12:27 pm

swc65 wrote:I don't get it. Law school is temporary. You're only there for six semesters and you can go wherever you want (or wherever there are jobs) during the summers/breaks etc.

Unless you think that the big city environmetn will negatively affect your performance, I would not choose a school based on where you want to live for 3/4 of the year for 3 years.

It also depends on the schools. If you're talking NYU/Penn then it's a tossup. If you're CLS/ M or V then I, personally, would not factor in location.


+1

ahnhub
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby ahnhub » Tue May 29, 2012 1:04 pm

A lot of people say the "atmosphere" thing is kind of overblown and student bodies at any law school are more similar than not--most law students actually do seem pretty collegial. But if you happen to hate New York or Chicago or love small college towns, that's something.

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Flash
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Flash » Tue May 29, 2012 1:05 pm

Have you tried negotiating more money from MVP? They know they have to pay more for CCN numbers.

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Cartman
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Cartman » Tue May 29, 2012 2:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:This is a choice I'm currently making, despite a similar scholarship from CCN (though with a higher cost of living)

I really think I will enjoy the lifestyle of the MVP school significantly more than the New York/ Chicago atmosphere and big-city urban living, as well as the collegiality I've seen at all three of MVP. I hope it will positively affect the way I learn and get involved with law

Is this a crazy decision?? I'm hoping to eventually work for a big firm after school, but I really want to go with MVP. Anyone have personal experience with a similar decision?


Unless the "MVP" in question is Penn, I think it's a pretty risky decision without more scholarship money. C/O 2011 did much worse at M and V than at CLS or P, and it's not clear what things look like going forward.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

Real Madrid
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Real Madrid » Tue May 29, 2012 4:01 pm

rayiner wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:This is a choice I'm currently making, despite a similar scholarship from CCN (though with a higher cost of living)

I really think I will enjoy the lifestyle of the MVP school significantly more than the New York/ Chicago atmosphere and big-city urban living, as well as the collegiality I've seen at all three of MVP. I hope it will positively affect the way I learn and get involved with law

Is this a crazy decision?? I'm hoping to eventually work for a big firm after school, but I really want to go with MVP. Anyone have personal experience with a similar decision?


Unless the "MVP" in question is Penn, I think it's a pretty risky decision without more scholarship money. C/O 2011 did much worse at M and V than at CLS or P, and it's not clear what things look like going forward.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415


I think it's important to note that in the recent NLJ250 numbers, out of MVPB, P and B did better than NYU and V did just as well. Only M really placed below N. The more statistics I see the more I wonder how it ever came to be CCN in the first place rather than NMVPB. (I know, I know, NYC placement)

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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby chasgoose » Tue May 29, 2012 4:09 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
rayiner wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:This is a choice I'm currently making, despite a similar scholarship from CCN (though with a higher cost of living)

I really think I will enjoy the lifestyle of the MVP school significantly more than the New York/ Chicago atmosphere and big-city urban living, as well as the collegiality I've seen at all three of MVP. I hope it will positively affect the way I learn and get involved with law

Is this a crazy decision?? I'm hoping to eventually work for a big firm after school, but I really want to go with MVP. Anyone have personal experience with a similar decision?


Unless the "MVP" in question is Penn, I think it's a pretty risky decision without more scholarship money. C/O 2011 did much worse at M and V than at CLS or P, and it's not clear what things look like going forward.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415


I think it's important to note that in the recent NLJ250 numbers, out of MVPB, P and B did better than NYU and V did just as well. Only M really placed below N. The more statistics I see the more I wonder how it ever came to be CCN in the first place rather than NMVPB. (I know, I know, NYC placement)


There are many reasons why NYU underperforms on the NLJ numbers, but it's performance is still more similar to CC than MPVB... 80% of students who participated got an offer at EIW last year from NYU, CLS had something like an 85% success rate. I doubt the MVPB schools were as successful.

Real Madrid
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Real Madrid » Tue May 29, 2012 4:13 pm

chasgoose wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:
rayiner wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:This is a choice I'm currently making, despite a similar scholarship from CCN (though with a higher cost of living)

I really think I will enjoy the lifestyle of the MVP school significantly more than the New York/ Chicago atmosphere and big-city urban living, as well as the collegiality I've seen at all three of MVP. I hope it will positively affect the way I learn and get involved with law

Is this a crazy decision?? I'm hoping to eventually work for a big firm after school, but I really want to go with MVP. Anyone have personal experience with a similar decision?


Unless the "MVP" in question is Penn, I think it's a pretty risky decision without more scholarship money. C/O 2011 did much worse at M and V than at CLS or P, and it's not clear what things look like going forward.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415


I think it's important to note that in the recent NLJ250 numbers, out of MVPB, P and B did better than NYU and V did just as well. Only M really placed below N. The more statistics I see the more I wonder how it ever came to be CCN in the first place rather than NMVPB. (I know, I know, NYC placement)


There are many reasons why NYU underperforms on the NLJ numbers, but it's performance is still more similar to CC than MPVB... 80% of students who participated got an offer at EIW last year from NYU, CLS had something like an 85% success rate. I doubt the MVPB schools were as successful.


What are the many reasons NYU underperforms on NLJ?

Also, not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to your 80% number (other than anecdotal evidence on TLS)? And what percentage of students actually did participate?

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Greenandgold
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Greenandgold » Tue May 29, 2012 4:20 pm

Real Madrid wrote:What are the many reasons NYU underperforms on NLJ?

Also, not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to your 80% number (other than anecdotal evidence on TLS)? And what percentage of students actually did participate?


It really doesn't. http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

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rayiner
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby rayiner » Tue May 29, 2012 5:14 pm

Greenandgold wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:What are the many reasons NYU underperforms on NLJ?

Also, not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to your 80% number (other than anecdotal evidence on TLS)? And what percentage of students actually did participate?


It really doesn't. http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL


There is no good way to incorporate this knowledge. Presumably similar issues impact other schools? You can't just add 58 students to NYU's total. What we really want to see is NYU's own 2011 OCI data, to compare with other schools.

For someone choosing amongst the non-HYS T14 for this cycle, the big thing is uncertainty. It's plausible that M and V's 2011 performance was a fluke caused by slow-reacting OCS. It is also possible that it's the new normal, cause by these schools not having real home markets.

sandiego222
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby sandiego222 » Tue May 29, 2012 5:30 pm

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Last edited by sandiego222 on Thu May 31, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby BruceWayne » Tue May 29, 2012 5:31 pm

If you're choosing between the listed schools you should focus on: 1. Where you want to work and your ties and 2. scholarship money.

I'll tell you right now that any sense of "collegiality" etc. difference between schools at this level is garbage. They are all intensely competitive and unlike any enviornment you've ever been in if you did not attend and elite undergrad or other elite grad school. So that really should not play into it. Really, the only environmental difference that you should factor into your decision has little or nothing to do with the school--evaluate based off of the locations. Living in NYC vs. Charlottesville or Chicao vs. Ann Arbor etc. is a big difference.

As far as career prosepcts go just focus on what markets you are intersted in and if you have ties--i.e if you want NYC go to Columbia and NYU or Penn (with a preference for the first 2 assuming you don't prefer living in Philly or scholly money--don't pick based on one of them being more or less "collegial" than the other). If you want to live in the South and have ties there go to UVA; want to work in Chicago go to UChi etc.

Edit--I see you posted again. If you are averse to cold weather you basically have no choice but UVA--and frankly it isn't all that warm either. Too bad you didn't list Duke. Job wise choosing UVA over NYU and Penn won't matter unless you want to work in NYC or Philly. If you want to go back home to Cali you should definitely just go to UVA.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 29, 2012 5:37 pm

rayiner wrote:
Greenandgold wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:What are the many reasons NYU underperforms on NLJ?

Also, not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to your 80% number (other than anecdotal evidence on TLS)? And what percentage of students actually did participate?


It really doesn't. http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL


There is no good way to incorporate this knowledge. Presumably similar issues impact other schools? You can't just add 58 students to NYU's total. What we really want to see is NYU's own 2011 OCI data, to compare with other schools.

For someone choosing amongst the non-HYS T14 for this cycle, the big thing is uncertainty. It's plausible that M and V's 2011 performance was a fluke caused by slow-reacting OCS. It is also possible that it's the new normal, cause by these schools not having real home markets.


The same issue existed in 2010 and appeared to only materially impact Harvard, Columbia and NYU. Columbia is the only one of the three to release C/O 2011 data and they were once again hurt by the different methods NLJ uses. Still waiting on C/O 2011 numbers from the rest of the T-14 stragglers and as you said the OCI data helps too.

Your thread does show a clear advantage for NYU over at least M and V that matches up with what we saw in prior years. Given their legitimate claims to substantial PI self-selection I think we can say that for placement purposes CCN means something.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby BruceWayne » Tue May 29, 2012 5:51 pm

OP if you aren't trying to work in NYC or (for UChi) Chicago CCN really doesn't mean much, if anything, over other top 14 schools. The bottom line is that your 1L grades and ties will determine your job prospects between these schools. You have ties to California--the only other question is your grades. If you want NYC though, you should go to NYU regardless of how you feel about weather etc.

sandiego222
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Re: Picking MVP over CCN

Postby sandiego222 » Tue May 29, 2012 5:57 pm

BruceWayne wrote:OP if you aren't trying to work in NYC or (for UChi) Chicago CCN really doesn't mean much, if anything, over other top 14 schools. The bottom line is that your 1L grades and ties will determine your job prospects between these schools. You have ties to California--the only other question is your grades. If you want NYC though, you should go to NYU regardless of how you feel about weather etc.


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Last edited by sandiego222 on Thu May 31, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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