CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

USC (w/120k)
42
57%
Columbia (Sticker)
32
43%
 
Total votes: 74

newpoaster
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CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 1:38 pm

From CA, want to work in CA, otherwise no specific career goals (horror stories of biglaw make me think I might not be cut out for it... don't have the work ethic).
COA (before interest): USC 50k, Columbia 160k

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flem
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 1:40 pm

If your goal is CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law then Columbia

If your goal is CA biglaw > any CA law > anything else then USC

Sounds like your goal is option #2. Enjoy USC!

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 1:42 pm

flem wrote:If your goal is CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law then Columbia

If your goal is CA biglaw > any CA law > anything else then USC

Sounds like your goal is option #2. Enjoy USC!

I've never been to NYC...

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 1:52 pm

Anyone else? I hesitant to turn down the prestige of Columbia, which I think might justify the extra cost (over the course of my career). As an ignorant 0L, I feel underqualified to make this decision.

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flem
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 1:55 pm

newpoaster wrote:Anyone else? I hesitant to turn down the prestige of Columbia, which I think might justify the extra cost (over the course of my career). As an ignorant 0L, I feel underqualified to make this decision.


The thing is - USC allows you career freedom if you don't want/strike out at OCI for biglaw. 'Dat 160K pre-interest debt needs biglaw dough to pay it off.

Excellent117
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Excellent117 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:55 pm

Do you want to work in Northern or Southern California?

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 1:57 pm

Excellent117 wrote:Do you want to work in Northern or Southern California?

Prefer NorCal. From SoCal, though, so I don't mind ending up there.

LSHopeful91
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby LSHopeful91 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:57 pm

.
Last edited by LSHopeful91 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Excellent117
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Excellent117 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:59 pm

newpoaster wrote:
Excellent117 wrote:Do you want to work in Northern or Southern California?

Prefer NorCal. From SoCal, though, so I don't mind ending up there.


I'm a 0L, so take that into account, but from all that I've read/researched, it appears that USC's California clout is mainly limited to SoCal, so if you want to end up in NorCal, I think Columbia would make that much easier/more likely.

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 2:03 pm

LSHopeful91 wrote:I couldn't justify taking the total amount in loans and being in debt 15+ years when I had a scholarship offer from a still prestigious (though less so) school. I don't know if you see it as a comparable situation, but I think if your goal is biglaw without any specific geographical preferences and you would have to pay for the full amount of Columbia in loans, I'd take USC.

This is my hang up. Fortunately, I will not have to pay COL at either school, so my debt out of Columbia will be somewhat more manageable. Still very much scared of debt though.

Excellent117
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Excellent117 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:05 pm

newpoaster wrote:
LSHopeful91 wrote:I couldn't justify taking the total amount in loans and being in debt 15+ years when I had a scholarship offer from a still prestigious (though less so) school. I don't know if you see it as a comparable situation, but I think if your goal is biglaw without any specific geographical preferences and you would have to pay for the full amount of Columbia in loans, I'd take USC.

This is my hang up. Fortunately, I will not have to pay COL at either school, so my debt out of Columbia will be somewhat more manageable. Still very much scared of debt though.


Have you tried asking Columbia for any kind of help? They might not feel obliged to counter an offer from USC, but 120k might cause them to at least give you something, and it can't hurt to ask (assuming you haven't already done so).

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue May 22, 2012 2:05 pm

Check the legal employment forum for the exact numbers. CLS reportedly had a ~80% offer rate at the last OCI while USC had around 40-45%. That makes CLS well worth the extra money IMO if your goal is biglaw.

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 2:06 pm

Excellent117 wrote:
newpoaster wrote:
Excellent117 wrote:Do you want to work in Northern or Southern California?

Prefer NorCal. From SoCal, though, so I don't mind ending up there.


I'm a 0L, so take that into account, but from all that I've read/researched, it appears that USC's California clout is mainly limited to SoCal, so if you want to end up in NorCal, I think Columbia would make that much easier/more likely.

I've heard this, and it's one of the reasons I'm considering Columbia so strongly.

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 2:07 pm

Excellent117 wrote:
newpoaster wrote:
LSHopeful91 wrote:I couldn't justify taking the total amount in loans and being in debt 15+ years when I had a scholarship offer from a still prestigious (though less so) school. I don't know if you see it as a comparable situation, but I think if your goal is biglaw without any specific geographical preferences and you would have to pay for the full amount of Columbia in loans, I'd take USC.

This is my hang up. Fortunately, I will not have to pay COL at either school, so my debt out of Columbia will be somewhat more manageable. Still very much scared of debt though.


Have you tried asking Columbia for any kind of help? They might not feel obliged to counter an offer from USC, but 120k might cause them to at least give you something, and it can't hurt to ask (assuming you haven't already done so).

Don't think I'll get any $$$ given my numbers (also, got in off WL).

iiifly
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby iiifly » Tue May 22, 2012 2:08 pm

Money is a big deal.

You will make the same salary out of USC as you would with Columbia.

Provided you land a job at either.

So do you want to mortgage the first 5-10years of your professional career, for deminimis benefit?

I wouldn't. I wish I could've talked sense into my wife who chose the expensive Medical school over a slightly less prestigious and less costly school. She now makes the same salary as Carribean graduates (no differential!). I know it doesn't apply much to law, but a T20 school - not much difference in salary should you get a job.

I would pocket that 210K and plan for a house, wife, kids, cars, vacations, etc. the point of education is to have a better life, not worse. Always take the money, IMO.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue May 22, 2012 2:09 pm

iiifly wrote:Money is a big deal.

You will make the same salary out of USC as you would with Columbia.

Provided you land a job at either.

So do you want to mortgage the first 5-10years of your professional career, for deminimis benefit?

I wouldn't. I wish I could've talked sense into my wife who chose the expensive Medical school over a slightly less prestigious and less costly school. She now makes the same salary as Carribean graduates (no differential!). I know it doesn't apply much to law, but a T20 school - not much difference in salary should you get a job.

I would pocket that 210K and plan for a house, wife, kids, cars, vacations, etc. the point of education is to have a better life, not worse. Always take the money, IMO.


The point is not the difference in salary. Its the difference in probability that you will make that salary, which is very substantial between these two schools.

d.schoenfeld16
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby d.schoenfeld16 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:09 pm

newpoaster wrote:
Excellent117 wrote:
newpoaster wrote:
LSHopeful91 wrote:I couldn't justify taking the total amount in loans and being in debt 15+ years when I had a scholarship offer from a still prestigious (though less so) school. I don't know if you see it as a comparable situation, but I think if your goal is biglaw without any specific geographical preferences and you would have to pay for the full amount of Columbia in loans, I'd take USC.

This is my hang up. Fortunately, I will not have to pay COL at either school, so my debt out of Columbia will be somewhat more manageable. Still very much scared of debt though.


Have you tried asking Columbia for any kind of help? They might not feel obliged to counter an offer from USC, but 120k might cause them to at least give you something, and it can't hurt to ask (assuming you haven't already done so).

Don't think I'll get any $$$ given my numbers (also, got in off WL).


It really can't hurt to ask though. You were still offered a spot, which means you will count towards their yield rate, so they might be inclined to offer you something.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue May 22, 2012 2:10 pm

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... Bd3c&gid=7

During 2010 (pre-crash) CLS biglaw rate double what USC's was. I would go with CLS here.

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twenty
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby twenty » Tue May 22, 2012 2:13 pm

If you're not wild about biglaw, and you're okay/want to stay in SoCal, I think USC is certainly a viable choice here. I know there's this whole T14 or bust thing going on, but there's nothing wrong with picking a regional school with a huge scholarship, especially one as strong as USC.

If you can get CLS to pick up even 25k, that might be a better option, though. It's really close.

iiifly
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby iiifly » Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 pm

He will have a better life without a big law job in SoCal, but that's not saying that he won't be able to land one regardless. You also need to learn what's behind the stats - are the candidates from USC applying to BigLaw or not? There's more BigLaw firms in NY. If a USC grad applied in NY, may just as well land a job.

You guys are all out of your minds when it comes to prestige. When the time comes to pay off the loans you will be thrilled. Student Loans are not discharge able. It will be an Albatross on your neck for a long time, during a time you would want to pursue your genuine interests. You can postpone this, I guess, when your old and can't do jack.

THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN THIS BULLSHIT.

LSHopeful91
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby LSHopeful91 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:40 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:Check the legal employment forum for the exact numbers. CLS reportedly had a ~80% offer rate at the last OCI while USC had around 40-45%. That makes CLS well worth the extra money IMO if your goal is biglaw.


What these figures are telling me is that if you are in the top half of your class at USC, you should find work. If you are not confident enough to believe that you'll be in the top 1/2, then pick Columbia; however if you don't think you'll be in the top 1/2, what makes you think you'll be in the top 80% ? My point being [I'm not calling the OP insecure] but at a certain point I think that people will sacrifice their financial well being for an unnecessary security buffer. If you don't believe that you'll be in the top 40% at USC, but will be able to make it between the 40-80% range at Columbia, then go to CLS.

I will say, I think the 50k in debt out of USC could be overcome by a non law related job, while it will be paramountly more difficult to overcome the 160k+ from Columbia if you do land in the bottom 20% of your class.

But this is just OCI, so it's not necessarily the distribution of people who get Biglaw (unless I'm mistaken)

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 22, 2012 2:42 pm

iiifly wrote:Money is a big deal.

You will make the same salary out of USC as you would with Columbia.

Provided you land a job at either.

So do you want to mortgage the first 5-10years of your professional career, for deminimis benefit?


LOL @ the difference in job placement representing a "deminimis" benefit.

iiifly wrote:You also need to learn what's behind the stats - are the candidates from USC applying to BigLaw or not? There's more BigLaw firms in NY. If a USC grad applied in NY, may just as well land a job.


You've got to be kidding me. You think all of those USC grads just didn't want high paying jobs?

iiifly wrote:I would pocket that 210K


160K-50K=110K, not 210K.


OP, if you aren't excited about the prospect of BigLaw then USC is a fine decision here. Just understand that the job prospects are very different for the majority of people at these schools.

timbs4339
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:49 pm

iiifly wrote:He will have a better life without a big law job in SoCal, but that's not saying that he won't be able to land one regardless. You also need to learn what's behind the stats - are the candidates from USC applying to BigLaw or not? There's more BigLaw firms in NY. If a USC grad applied in NY, may just as well land a job.

You guys are all out of your minds when it comes to prestige. When the time comes to pay off the loans you will be thrilled. Student Loans are not discharge able. It will be an Albatross on your neck for a long time, during a time you would want to pursue your genuine interests. You can postpone this, I guess, when your old and can't do jack.

THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN THIS BULLSHIT.


Do you really think a 40-50% of USC's students would turn down 160K in NYC over 50K in CA if they had a shot of working there?

flem wrote:If your goal is CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law then Columbia

If your goal is CA biglaw > any CA law > anything else then USC

Sounds like your goal is option #2. Enjoy USC!


This is probably right. I'd think the chances of getting CA biglaw (what % of the class + ties you need to get a job) is about the same. CLS offers a better biglaw cushion- but going into debt just to get a job you don't like to pay off that debt seems silly to me. If you are dead set to work in CA and don't really care about biglaw, USC. Note, however, that a lot of people don't think the biglaw thing is for them until they get to law school and then you see them agonizing at OCI. One problem is that there are not a ton of decently paying jobs out there after biglaw.

newpoaster
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby newpoaster » Tue May 22, 2012 2:50 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
iiifly wrote:I would pocket that 210K


160K-50K=110K, not 210K.


OP, if you aren't excited about the prospect of BigLaw then USC is a fine decision here. Just understand that the job prospects are very different for the majority of people at these schools.

Yes, I'm not really sure what non-biglaw, non-PI people do. I can't exactly go solo out of LS. Midlaw? Is there such a thing as a "lifestyle" firm. My health is way more important to me than money.
ETA: Scooped
timbs4339 wrote:Note, however, that a lot of people don't think the biglaw thing is for them until they get to law school and then you see them agonizing at OCI. One problem is that there are not a ton of decently paying jobs out there after biglaw.

iiifly
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Re: CLS (sticker) or USC ($$$$). HALP!!!

Postby iiifly » Wed May 23, 2012 10:24 am

LSHopeful91 wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Check the legal employment forum for the exact numbers. CLS reportedly had a ~80% offer rate at the last OCI while USC had around 40-45%. That makes CLS well worth the extra money IMO if your goal is biglaw.


What these figures are telling me is that if you are in the top half of your class at USC, you should find work. If you are not confident enough to believe that you'll be in the top 1/2, then pick Columbia; however if you don't think you'll be in the top 1/2, what makes you think you'll be in the top 80% ? My point being [I'm not calling the OP insecure] but at a certain point I think that people will sacrifice their financial well being for an unnecessary security buffer. If you don't believe that you'll be in the top 40% at USC, but will be able to make it between the 40-80% range at Columbia, then go to CLS.

I will say, I think the 50k in debt out of USC could be overcome by a non law related job, while it will be paramountly more difficult to overcome the 160k+ from Columbia if you do land in the bottom 20% of your class.

But this is just OCI, so it's not necessarily the distribution of people who get Biglaw (unless I'm mistaken)


Take this advice to the bank.

There used to be a Beer smiley in the repertoire of smilies of this forum (or perhaps, another). Anyway, I would've put a hundred of them here.




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