Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

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modus pwnens
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Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Tue May 22, 2012 12:06 pm

Lurker coming out of the shadows. Thought I'd consult the brain trust.

Just got off the waitlist at UofO with some money, which means that the relevant part of my cycle is as follows:

University of Oregon w/ $10k/yr (2.0/"good academic standing" stip)
Willamette w/ $14k/yr (2.9 stip)
Lewis & Clark waitlist
University of Utah waitlist

In the last couple months I drove out to all four schools, to check out the school and chat with folks (Willamette) and to interview in hopes of getting off of waitlists (Oregon, L&C, Utah). L&C is gorgeous and the folks were very friendly; same for Willamette; Oregon remains The Land of the Omnipresent Duck, and the students I spent time with seemed surprisingly friendly and laid-back; Utah (the law school at least) remains horribly ugly, but the people were great.

From the Oregon schools, at least, I got the impression (albeit, from a one-day visit per) that L&C thinks of itself as the Oregon school; UofO thinks there are two good schools in the state; Willamette thinks there are three good schools in the state andbythewaydidyounoticethecapitolisacrossthestreet?

I have strong ties to Portland and SLC, and would be happy to practice in either region. In fact, Portland and SLC are my preferred destinations.

Deposits on Oregon and Willamette are due on the first of June.

Assuming I don't hear anything from my remaining waitlists in the next week, the question falls: is the increase in ranking of UofO over Willamette worth that ~$7k/yr increased price tag?

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DCDuck
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby DCDuck » Tue May 22, 2012 12:11 pm

Yes, UO is that much better, and the scholarship stipulation at Oregon is much more generous. it is very hard to get less than a 2.0 (and if you do, you should seriously consider dropping out even without the loss of scholarship). It is much easier to get below a 2.9 at Willamette. If you haven't already, I would also look into the Willamette drop out policy. Rumor (at least at the other Oregon schools) is that Willamette drops about 10% of their 1L class at the end of the year (each semester?). Something to think about. You can also get work in SLC or PDX from UO. Good luck!

Edit: Full disclosure-I just graduated from OLaw.

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modus pwnens
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Tue May 22, 2012 12:22 pm

I am indeed familiar with the Willamette drop policy; in fact, that was a topic of conversation when I went up and spoke with Mr. Miller in their admissions office.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue May 22, 2012 12:36 pm

The Willamette stip is pretty ugly. I think Eugene and Salem are both ghastly, but most people would probably disagree with me on Eugene.

In Portland, placement generally goes L&C >> T14 >> UO >> Will >> UW

Here's my rough breakdown of Portland "biglaw" hires since 2000-ish:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

And here are the summer associate hires in Portland last year:
http://034aac7.netsolhost.com/WordPress/law-students/

I would vote for Oregon, as much as it pains me.

BeautifulSW
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby BeautifulSW » Tue May 22, 2012 1:03 pm

U. Washington is really that far down the list? Interesting; I'd never have guessed it. I know Lewis and Clark has a very good reputation throughout the PNW and not just the law school. But brother is it expensive!

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:06 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:U. Washington is really that far down the list? Interesting; I'd never have guessed it. I know Lewis and Clark has a very good reputation throughout the PNW and not just the law school. But brother is it expensive!
Probably prestige-wise UW is fine in Portland, but there just simply aren't enough jobs in the market. The very top students from L&C and UO get about half, Willamette gets a few more, and T14 students (presumably with ties to the market) do pretty well, especially Mich.

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Campagnolo
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby Campagnolo » Tue May 22, 2012 1:16 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:U. Washington is really that far down the list? Interesting; I'd never have guessed it. I know Lewis and Clark has a very good reputation throughout the PNW and not just the law school. But brother is it expensive!
Probably prestige-wise UW is fine in Portland, but there just simply aren't enough jobs in the market. The very top students from L&C and UO get about half, Willamette gets a few more, and T14 students (presumably with ties to the market) do pretty well, especially Mich.


What up, rinkrat?

Go to Oregon. Seriously. Outside of the top 5 or 6 firms rink mentioned, Oregon has a very very strong pull in the state. People love their football and there's a ton of school pride. The Oregon alumni network is pretty good. I work in a small law firm, and it's undeniable the difference between Willamette and Oregon. While we have attorneys from both schools, most of the attorneys went to Oregon, and they love to talk about their school.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Campagnolo wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:U. Washington is really that far down the list? Interesting; I'd never have guessed it. I know Lewis and Clark has a very good reputation throughout the PNW and not just the law school. But brother is it expensive!
Probably prestige-wise UW is fine in Portland, but there just simply aren't enough jobs in the market. The very top students from L&C and UO get about half, Willamette gets a few more, and T14 students (presumably with ties to the market) do pretty well, especially Mich.


What up, rinkrat?

Go to Oregon. Seriously. Outside of the top 5 or 6 firms rink mentioned, Oregon has a very very strong pull in the state. People love their football and there's a ton of school pride. The Oregon alumni network is pretty good. I work in a small law firm, and it's undeniable the difference between Willamette and Oregon. While we have attorneys from both schools, most of the attorneys went to Oregon, and they love to talk about their school.
'Sup!

Agree, with the warning that Oregon fans are almost universally raging douchewaffles. They're the Yankee fans of the west coast. :P

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DCDuck
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby DCDuck » Tue May 22, 2012 1:23 pm

Oh, come now! We're not that bad. We're just better than everyone else! I guess that can be hard to handle.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:27 pm

DCDuck wrote:Oh, come now! We're not that bad. We're just better than everyone else! I guess that can be hard to handle.
Q.E.D.

:wink:

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modus pwnens
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Tue May 22, 2012 2:39 pm

Oy. I guess I have to learn to love football. ;) It was a little disconcerting to sit in interview and hear how cash-strapped Oregon Law is while having driven there past their pretty stadium, past their pretty arena, and then past their other pretty stadium. ;) Especially with the recent tuition hike, made more so by my OOS status.

I had called to inquire as to residency requirements (I used to live in OR for a while, but I have not in the last couple years), and they confirmed what has been mentioned in a few other threads: the State of Oregon is not at all keen on giving resident tuition to a student from out of state, ever, haha pay sticker.

(Mentioned because Utah makes much of how you can become a resident in your 2L year if you try.)

The big concern was whether the job market/reputational effect of UofO over Willamette was worth the extra money. Consensus seems to be that it is. Now that I look at it again, it appears that I must have got into my head some older tuition rates for the latter; it's looking like both schools run ~$35k. That narrows it from a $7k difference to a $4k difference.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:50 pm

modus pwnens wrote:Oy. I guess I have to learn to love football. ;) It was a little disconcerting to sit in interview and hear how cash-strapped Oregon Law is while having driven there past their pretty stadium, past their pretty arena, and then past their other pretty stadium. ;)
Alas, if only they could plaster a Nike Swoosh somewhere on the wall in the moot courtroom, maybe Uncle Phil would write the law school a check.

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DCDuck
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby DCDuck » Tue May 22, 2012 2:55 pm

At least UO has a nice law school building. You should have seen the OLD law building that was used about 12 years ago. I don't know what's up with how cash strapped they seem to be, but expect tuition hikes each year. That's probably the case at most schools, though. I found that the tuition increased, while the federal loans available to me did not, leaving me with an unanticipated gap in funds my last year. Caveat Emptor.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 22, 2012 3:10 pm

I love the state of Oregon, but Utah is the place to be for law jobs between the two. Utah moves into a new law school building in the next two years.

P.S. But Oregon's coastline is much more beautiful than Utah's. :D

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modus pwnens
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Tue May 22, 2012 3:39 pm

Perhaps. But if you're looking for salt water, Utah's got Oregon beat. :)

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Campagnolo
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby Campagnolo » Tue May 22, 2012 5:37 pm

What are your goals. What do you want to do with a lol degree? That could help us help you.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 23, 2012 6:15 pm

I vote Utah but only because I exist online and am allowed to have worthless opinions. I've never even been to Oregon. SLC is a cool place. Skiing is really good. Wait out the wait list and go to the U.

justnicholas
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby justnicholas » Wed May 23, 2012 6:20 pm

UofO without a doubt over Willamette and in response to UW being further down that list I would assume its becomes most of them prefer to stay in Washington/Seattle compared to people attending Oregon schools who prefer Oregon/Portland.

I feel like thats common sense?

BeautifulSW
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed May 23, 2012 7:41 pm

For those familiar with the local markets, perhaps it is common sense but Willamette is a T4 while UW is #20. That's all.

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Campagnolo
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby Campagnolo » Wed May 23, 2012 7:58 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:For those familiar with the local markets, perhaps it is common sense but Willamette is a T4 while UW is #20. That's all.


Doesn't matter. My firm (reputable small shop) hired two Willamette grads this year. They received 100s of resumes from all over the country. Who did they pick? 2 Willamette kids.

Truth is, the partners care more about personality (will you embarrass them/yourself in front of clients) and the clinics students were a part of. They wanted someone semi-able to hit the ground running, because it costs a lot of money to train a new associate, and they don't want to get burned.

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thelawyler
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby thelawyler » Thu May 24, 2012 1:01 am

rinkrat19 wrote:The Willamette stip is pretty ugly. I think Eugene and Salem are both ghastly, but most people would probably disagree with me on Eugene.

In Portland, placement generally goes L&C >> T14 >> UO >> Will >> UW

Here's my rough breakdown of Portland "biglaw" hires since 2000-ish:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

And here are the summer associate hires in Portland last year:
http://034aac7.netsolhost.com/WordPress/law-students/

I would vote for Oregon, as much as it pains me.


Those are some great spreadsheets. Anything similar for Seattle?

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modus pwnens
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Thu May 24, 2012 11:40 am

@McDuff: I love SLC. I am continually amused that, apart from maybe the Deep South, it seems to be the part of the country that the most people have confused/stereotyped opinions about. The city's pretty neat, the country is beautiful, and the school is better than my numbers have any business applying to. However, I'm not sure how enthusiastic I am of foregoing UofO/Willamette on the hope that my waitlist pans out.

@BeautifulSW: While it would make for a delightful problem to have, I did not get into UW and so I don't spend much time thinking about it.

@Campagnolo: I am most interested in trial advocacy/litigation, but am open to having my mind changed. I have a good amount of experience working in a family law office, and while I like that stuff (the drama is always interesting, and it always feels good watching clients go from walking in looking like a meteorite just fell on their heads to eventually walking out with a little more confidence and a lot more peace of mind), I don't feel the tremendous urge to run out and hang a shingle.

@RinkRat: That is some great data, and puts things into a perspective you don't get just talking to admissions offices. Thank you.

@DCDuck: The Ducks are inescapable. I'm at the office right this moment, several states away from Eugene, and there are O stickers on the cars in the parking lot. Y'all are crazy folk.

All: The biggest drama right now is the age-old problem of the waitlistee: I don't like the idea of putting down the substantial deposits that are due very shortly without having heard from L&C and Utah one way or the other. But I'm no snowflake in that regard, so there's no sense bitching about it.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu May 24, 2012 12:48 pm

thelawyler wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:The Willamette stip is pretty ugly. I think Eugene and Salem are both ghastly, but most people would probably disagree with me on Eugene.

In Portland, placement generally goes L&C >> T14 >> UO >> Will >> UW

Here's my rough breakdown of Portland "biglaw" hires since 2000-ish:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

And here are the summer associate hires in Portland last year:
http://034aac7.netsolhost.com/WordPress/law-students/

I would vote for Oregon, as much as it pains me.


Those are some great spreadsheets. Anything similar for Seattle?
lol, no, it took me DAYS to do Portland's teeny legal market. If someone else wants to do it, they are welcome! I used the NALP directory list of firms in the city as an approximation of 'biglaw', went to each firm's website, and literally went through the employee profiles to make a tally by school.

Caveats:
--This is only NALP firms. (A few midlaw firms may pay Portland's 'market' salary but there's no easy way to look them up.)
--Some firms don't list grad year, so I was literally guessing based on their photos and any available clues in their profile.
--My interpretation of "honors" included Latin honors, named scholarships and sometimes Dean's List, but no guarantees on consistency.
--Some firms don't list honors and/or journal participation, or are inconsistent.
--All data was gathered by hand from firm websites, and I probably missed people/made typos. Use it as approximations only.
--Even though the title says 'associates,' there are some partners, of/senior/special counsel and quite a few shareholders. I didn't differentiate.

I figure my errors were probably pretty evenly distributed and the overall ratio of schools should be pretty close.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu May 24, 2012 4:03 pm

modus pwnens wrote:@McDuff: I love SLC. I am continually amused that, apart from maybe the Deep South, it seems to be the part of the country that the most people have confused/stereotyped opinions about. The city's pretty neat, the country is beautiful, and the school is better than my numbers have any business applying to. However, I'm not sure how enthusiastic I am of foregoing UofO/Willamette on the hope that my waitlist pans out.



Just deposit at UO and plan on going there, while also riding the wait list at the U. People do this all the time.

Send a LOCI to the U right now. Literally start it now.

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modus pwnens
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Re: Univ. of Oregon vs Willamette

Postby modus pwnens » Thu May 24, 2012 6:16 pm

Send a LOCI to the U right now. Literally start it now.


I've actually traveled into the past, already sent a LOCI, as well as having driven up there to meet with two of the adcom members in person (with follow-up thank you's). Or, in less amusing terms, I've got that base covered already. :)




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