Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

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EmilyL8487
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Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby EmilyL8487 » Tue May 22, 2012 10:15 am

I know this topic has been posted before, but I have two weeks to decide whether I want to attend Fordham at full price or Cardozo with a $26k/year scholarship.

My significant other and I both live in NYC, so I do prefer to stay in Manhattan, and at this point, I don't have any other options. I am still on the waitlist at Georgetown, and if I got in there, I would be stupid not to go.

Just to give a little bit of background...I am very passionate about wrongful conviction issues, which is why I am attracted to Cardozo because it is where the Innocence Project is housed. I wrote my undergraduate Honors thesis on wrongful convictions and outside of my full-time job, I volunteer for an organization that works on false confession cases. I visited Cardozo for Admitted Students day and was very impressed with the clinic offerings and public service resources.

That being said, I am not certain that I want to be doing public interest work right out of law school. I think I would like to work at a mid-size to large firm for a few years until I can pay down my debt. For this reason, I am thinking that it might be worth it to pay full sticker for Fordham since they attract more firms and have better job placement.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help!

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flem
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 10:17 am

GPA/LSAT?

Worth noting that no Cardozo graduate works on the Innocence Project.

You're total cost of attendance at Cardozo would still be 150-175K even with that scholarship, right? At a certain point, there's not a big difference between 175K of debt and 250K of debt - a shit ton of debt is a shit ton of debt.

Fordham is only placing 25-30% of grads into large firm jobs that would allow you to service that debt. Pretty risky.

law2015
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby law2015 » Tue May 22, 2012 10:22 am

I would seriously consider Cardozo's money in this situation. Most likely you will not get big law out of Fordham and will end up with over 200k in debt. In my opinion, the extra biglaw placement out of Fordham in comparison to Cardozo is not worth passing up the scholly you are offered. Have you contacted Cardozo and asked for an increase in money?

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top30man
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby top30man » Tue May 22, 2012 10:23 am

Is your SO paying for COA while you go to school? If so I say Cardozo because that will allow you to leave school with less than 100k of debt. That being said, the smartest call is likely a retake. I personally wouldn't take Cardozo unless I got a full ride. I think Fordham is at a fair price with a 60k or more scholarship.
Also, as tflem noted, the top notch PI jobs go to people from higher ranked schools. Also it's worth noting it's possible to do both PI and firm work. I work at a big law firm and they work closely with the local innocence project on big trials several times a year.

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flem
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 10:27 am

law2015 wrote:I would seriously consider Cardozo's money in this situation. Most likely you will not get big law out of Fordham and will end up with over 200k in debt. In my opinion, the extra biglaw placement out of Fordham in comparison to Cardozo is not worth passing up the scholly you are offered. Have you contacted Cardozo and asked for an increase in money?


Except the money, coming out to 78K, only discounts the total cost of attendance to 175Kish, BEFORE INTEREST. That's still too expensive for a school that is leaving 31% of its graduates un/underemployed.

Holy balls, the non-discounted cost of Cardozo is 267K for C/O 2015. Subtract 78K and that leaves you with 189K, before interest. Calculating interest at 7.5% (grad plus/stafford average) for three years leaves you with $219,000 worth of debt, WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP. This is, of course, assuming you're financing everything through loans. You may not be, you didn't say.

That's insanity. Not worth it. At least Fordham has the potential to pay off, but I'd retake or not go instead of wasting a 3.7 on these schools.

law2015
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby law2015 » Tue May 22, 2012 10:30 am

flem wrote:
law2015 wrote:I would seriously consider Cardozo's money in this situation. Most likely you will not get big law out of Fordham and will end up with over 200k in debt. In my opinion, the extra biglaw placement out of Fordham in comparison to Cardozo is not worth passing up the scholly you are offered. Have you contacted Cardozo and asked for an increase in money?


Except the money, coming out to 78K, only discounts the total cost of attendance to 175Kish, BEFORE INTEREST. That's still too expensive for a school that is leaving 31% of its graduates un/underemployed.

Holy balls, the non-discounted cost of Cardozo is 267K for C/O 2015. Subtract 78K and that leaves you with 189K, before interest. Calculating interest at 7.5% (grad plus/stafford average) for three years leaves you with $219,000 worth of debt, WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP. This is, of course, assuming you're financing everything through loans. You may not be, you didn't say.

That's insanity. Not worth it. At least Fordham has the potential to pay off, but I'd retake or not go instead of wasting a 3.7 on these schools.


Didn't realize it would still cost over 200k after the scholly. OP should attempt to get Cardozo to bump the scholly closer to full ride if she is set on going this year and if not then retake and reapply.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue May 22, 2012 10:35 am

For the love of God, do not go to either school at these prices.

You won't want to hear it, but please retake. Taking a year off sucks, but being in $220K of debt with a $35-50K job sucks way more.

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JCFindley
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby JCFindley » Tue May 22, 2012 10:42 am

I am way to old to pay sticker at ANY school so I have that bias....

Between the two choices though, Fordham would be WELL worth the price difference in this case. In the big scheme of things it is not a lot more money for a significantly better job prospects including PI work down the road after you have paid down some debt....

Now, whether any school is worth sticker is really up to you to decide. The standard TLS wisdom is that Fordham is not but for me YHS would not be worth sticker either.... Only you can decide what level of risk you are comfortable with....

JC

EmilyL8487
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby EmilyL8487 » Tue May 22, 2012 11:06 am

Thanks everyone for sharing your feedback.

I have considered waiting another year and reapplying, but I really am not confident that I will be able to significantly raise my LSAT. I've taken the test twice, both with a Powerscore full-length prep course under my belt, and have not been able to improve my score. I had the same difficulty with the SATs for college admissions.

On top of that, I'll be 25 soon and have been working for a couple of years since college, so I am really ready to get to law school.

My significant other pays for a greater chunk of our cost of living, so my living expenses are similar to what they would be if I lived in Boston or Washington, DC.

I've done all of the calculations and if I attend Cardozo, I will be taking out around $150k worth of debt, compared to about $250k at Fordham. My parents are going to help out with the interest expenses as well as health insurance, and I've included all of that into my debt estimates.

As far as wrongful conviction opportunities, I am aware that the IP staff attorneys are almost all from top 10 schools. I don't plan on doing PI right after law school, but there were several clinics and PI opportunities that I was very interested in at Cardozo. I guess I see that more of an extracurricular focus, which I realize should not be my main concern in picking a school.

I am hoping that if I pick Fordham and am able to stay in the top 20% of my class, I would be able to land a job paying 120-150k that would help me pay down my debt in a few years.

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flem
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 11:10 am

What was your LSAT score and what is your weakest section? Full length courses are helpful and all but they won't fill in the gaps - that's up to you to do.

rad lulz
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby rad lulz » Tue May 22, 2012 11:11 am

EmilyL8487 wrote:I am hoping that if I pick Fordham and am able to stay in the top 20% of my class, I would be able to land a job paying 120-150k that would help me pay down my debt in a few years.

lol you and everyone else in the class

Don't go to law school

answer23
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby answer23 » Tue May 29, 2012 12:13 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:For the love of God, do not go to either school at these prices.

You won't want to hear it, but please retake. Taking a year off sucks, but being in $220K of debt with a $35-50K job sucks way more.

+10000

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 29, 2012 12:48 pm

flem wrote:Except the money, coming out to 78K, only discounts the total cost of attendance to 175Kish, BEFORE INTEREST. That's still too expensive for a school that is leaving 31% of its graduates un/underemployed.

Holy balls, the non-discounted cost of Cardozo is 267K for C/O 2015. Subtract 78K and that leaves you with 189K, before interest. Calculating interest at 7.5% (grad plus/stafford average) for three years leaves you with $219,000 worth of debt, WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP. This is, of course, assuming you're financing everything through loans. You may not be, you didn't say.

That's insanity. Not worth it. At least Fordham has the potential to pay off, but I'd retake or not go instead of wasting a 3.7 on these schools.


Slow down there dude. Lots of double counting going on here.

But no, neither school is worth it at those prices.

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flem
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby flem » Tue May 29, 2012 1:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Slow down there dude. Lots of double counting going on here.


Where'd I mess up? (serious, as you're continually one of the more informed financial bros on here)

answer23
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby answer23 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
flem wrote:Except the money, coming out to 78K, only discounts the total cost of attendance to 175Kish, BEFORE INTEREST. That's still too expensive for a school that is leaving 31% of its graduates un/underemployed.

Holy balls, the non-discounted cost of Cardozo is 267K for C/O 2015. Subtract 78K and that leaves you with 189K, before interest. Calculating interest at 7.5% (grad plus/stafford average) for three years leaves you with $219,000 worth of debt, WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP. This is, of course, assuming you're financing everything through loans. You may not be, you didn't say.

That's insanity. Not worth it. At least Fordham has the potential to pay off, but I'd retake or not go instead of wasting a 3.7 on these schools.


Slow down there dude. Lots of double counting going on here.

But no, neither school is worth it at those prices.

+1
Yup. I thought the interest was already factored into the total cost.

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flem
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby flem » Tue May 29, 2012 1:05 pm

answer23 wrote:+1
Yup. I thought the interest was already factored into the total cost.


Ah, if that's the case then my bad.

But 189K is still egregiously terrible.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 29, 2012 1:15 pm

flem wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Slow down there dude. Lots of double counting going on here.


Where'd I mess up? (serious, as you're continually one of the more informed financial bros on here)


As answer23 said interest is already factored in to LST's number. OP would be borrowing COA-26K per year so around 50K per year before interest.

But yes, still far too expensive unless the SO helps out more or the fam can kick in some cash.

TMC116
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby TMC116 » Wed May 30, 2012 4:51 am

Is the non discounted price the total cost after ~10 years of monthly payments or is it the cost of attendance at the time of graduation w/ interest?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed May 30, 2012 9:55 am

TMC116 wrote:Is the non discounted price the total cost after ~10 years of monthly payments or is it the cost of attendance at the time of graduation w/ interest?


Law School Transparency wrote:We use 2011-2012 tuition & fees prices and 2011-2012 indirect costs (room & board, etc.) to project debt owed by Class of 2015 and Class of 2016 graduates. These projections assume a 3% annual tuition increase and 2% annual indirect cost increase each year. Interest calculations are time-sensitive—based on semester disbursement periods—and use a blended interest rate. (The first 10.25k each semester is weighted at 6.8%, the rest at 7.9%.) The result: debt owed when a law school graduate must make their first loan payment six months following graduation.

This result is the non-discounted cost. Some students will not borrow all that the Department of Education permits. Others will receive scholarships their first year, with some receiving them in subsequent years too.

TMC116
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo w/ $$

Postby TMC116 » Thu May 31, 2012 2:55 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
TMC116 wrote:Is the non discounted price the total cost after ~10 years of monthly payments or is it the cost of attendance at the time of graduation w/ interest?


Law School Transparency wrote:We use 2011-2012 tuition & fees prices and 2011-2012 indirect costs (room & board, etc.) to project debt owed by Class of 2015 and Class of 2016 graduates. These projections assume a 3% annual tuition increase and 2% annual indirect cost increase each year. Interest calculations are time-sensitive—based on semester disbursement periods—and use a blended interest rate. (The first 10.25k each semester is weighted at 6.8%, the rest at 7.9%.) The result: debt owed when a law school graduate must make their first loan payment six months following graduation.

This result is the non-discounted cost. Some students will not borrow all that the Department of Education permits. Others will receive scholarships their first year, with some receiving them in subsequent years too.


Really scary.




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