Fordham vs GW ($$)

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Wily
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Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Mon May 21, 2012 2:48 pm

Ah, good news always comes with a bit of bad news.

I just got off of Fordham's waitlist, but in their phone call they told me there was no chance of a merit scholarship. I'm still going to see if there's any need-based aid.

I'm currently deposited at GW, which is offering me $25k a year.

Even though I want to return to NY after law school, and despite Fordham's better placement numbers, I'm not sure Fordham is worth $75k more than GW. I'm actually really torn about this decision, though, because I really would prefer to live in NYC over DC.

Thoughts? My numbers are 2.69/168, and I'm retaking in June, although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby bk1 » Mon May 21, 2012 2:58 pm

Wily wrote:Even though I want to return to NY after law school, and despite Fordham's better placement numbers, I'm not sure Fordham is worth $75k more than GW. I'm actually really torn about this decision, though, because I really would prefer to live in NYC over DC.


It's more than 75k. It's closer to 90k once you factor in interest. You're looking at something like 170k+ debt for GW and 260k+ debt for Fordham. If you are okay with working in DC I see no reason to take Fordham. You can always target NYC employment coming from GW. Sure it won't be as great as Fordham but that much extra debt isn't justifiable.

Wily wrote:although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.


Because with a 170+ you have a shot at better schools. Even at GW you're looking at 170k+ debt which is insane for a school with such middling employment statistics. Maybe you'd prefer GW at 170k+ debt over a T14 with 270k+ debt but I think at that much debt I'd definitely take the T14 over GW. But in either case you're looking at an assload of debt.

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Wily
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Mon May 21, 2012 3:01 pm

bk1 wrote:
Wily wrote:
Wily wrote:although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.


Because with a 170+ you have a shot at better schools. Even at GW you're looking at 170k+ debt which is insane for a school with such middling employment statistics. Maybe you'd prefer GW at 170k+ debt over a T14 with 270k+ debt but I think at that much debt I'd definitely take the T14 over GW. But in either case you're looking at an assload of debt.


Thanks for the response. The problem is, unless I break 175, I really don't have a shot at T14 schools anyway, given my super low GPA. I don't think I will break 175 in June. If I get in the low 170's, aren't I looking at exactly the same schools as I am right now, except with the possibility of slightly higher scholarship offers? I don't want to go to the West Coast, so the only sub-T14 schools that would take me are like Vanderbilt, which isn't much better than GW/Fordham.

MrAnon
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Don't do Fordham. Not worth it. You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW. The difference in job prospects is marginal.

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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 4:03 pm

One more thing-- your low GPA tends to scream that you should avoid these schools if not law school entirely. I'm sure there are exceptions but in general people with sub-3.0 GPAs get eaten alive in law school. If you had that much trouble with college, no matter the reason, law school will be a problem. its wonderful that you did well on the LSAT, and sure it shows you have the aptitude for this level of work, but the GPA says don't go down this road.

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flem
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 4:04 pm

MrAnon wrote:Don't do Fordham. Not worth it. You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW. The difference in job prospects is marginal.


This is credited.

MrAnon wrote:One more thing-- your low GPA tends to scream that you should avoid these schools if not law school entirely. I'm sure there are exceptions but in general people with sub-3.0 GPAs get eaten alive in law school. If you had that much trouble with college, no matter the reason, law school will be a problem. its wonderful that you did well on the LSAT, and sure it shows you have the aptitude for this level of work, but the GPA says don't go down this road.


This is not.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 21, 2012 4:06 pm

GWU since you are limiting your options to these two law schools.

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Wily
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Mon May 21, 2012 4:10 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:GWU since you are limiting your options to these two law schools.


I have some other random options, but I decided against them. The closest was a full-ride to Cardozo, but I scared away by its 30% unemployed/underemployed statistics.

My full cycle is here: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Wily

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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 21, 2012 4:14 pm

Consider asking GWU, WashUStL, WFU & Wm.&Mary for more money.

P.S. Not sure that you need a 175+ to get into a top 14--especially since a 174 is above all law schools' median. Next cycle will be a down cycle re: # of apps. to law school. In my opinion, a 171 will change your options in a significant manner. A 172 could result in admission to Northwestern, for example.

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Wily
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Mon May 21, 2012 4:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Consider asking GWU, WashUStL, WFU & Wm.&Mary for more money.

P.S. Not sure that you need a 175+ to get into a top 14--especially since a 174 is above all law schools' median. Next cycle will be a down cycle re: # of apps. to law school. In my opinion, a 171 will change your options in a significant manner. A 172 could result in admission to Northwestern, for example.


Hmm, that's encouraging news. I'll have to work as hard as I can between now and June 11 then. If I score higher than 172, I'll have probably the hardest decision of all, whether to sit out another cycle (and work in an agonizingly boring deadend low-paid job for another year) or not.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby dingbat » Mon May 21, 2012 4:34 pm

MrAnon wrote:You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever

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roaringeagle
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby roaringeagle » Mon May 21, 2012 4:50 pm

can you ask washu for more money? It is really cheap to live there.

MrAnon
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 4:54 pm

dingbat wrote:
MrAnon wrote:You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever


Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

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flem
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 4:56 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.


That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby dingbat » Mon May 21, 2012 5:03 pm

MrAnon wrote:
dingbat wrote:
MrAnon wrote:You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever


Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

erm, I'm agreeing with your earlier statement that if OP were to do well at GW, opportunities will be available, whereas if OP blows at GW, OP would suck at Fordham as well, ergo OP should take the money

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bk1
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby bk1 » Mon May 21, 2012 5:08 pm

Wily wrote:Thanks for the response. The problem is, unless I break 175, I really don't have a shot at T14 schools anyway, given my super low GPA. I don't think I will break 175 in June. If I get in the low 170's, aren't I looking at exactly the same schools as I am right now, except with the possibility of slightly higher scholarship offers? I don't want to go to the West Coast, so the only sub-T14 schools that would take me are like Vanderbilt, which isn't much better than GW/Fordham.

A 170+ will give you a shot at splitter-friendly schools (UVA/GULC/NU). A 172+ will give you a decent chance at them.

utlaw2007
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon May 21, 2012 6:34 pm

flem wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.


That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.


Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby bk1 » Mon May 21, 2012 8:17 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
flem wrote:That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.


Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.


+1 on undergrad. If you get a sub3 it's generally because you just don't care enough and/or are very lazy.

Though the danger is that sub3's might not change their habits in law school. However, as someone who is a and knows a decent number of sub3 UGPAs in law school, it seems to me that they fall pretty evenly along the curve.

rad lulz
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.

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Wily
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Mon May 21, 2012 9:44 pm

rad lulz wrote:Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.


But GW gave me such a nice leather binder and keychain. I have to go, right?

MrAnon
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 10:04 pm

flem wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.


That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.


I think we've established that law schools will take people with sub 3.0 GPAs. You are saying Northwestern is known for it? I guess that could mean any number of things about the place. I'm sure Northwestern is full of people who once upon a time reasoned "screw this college thing; I'm just going to get into law school and kill it there; that's all that matters". Of course then they run into classmates that have the school thing down pat and all the work experience in the world isn't going to help them write an exam.

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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 10:06 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
flem wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.


That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.


Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.


There is no convincing necessary. If you can pay for school and you are the best option the school has to fill a seat, you are in. I made a 3.0 in college, said not a single word about it in any application, and got into a T25. I sure didn't twist anyones arm.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby roaringeagle » Mon May 21, 2012 11:52 pm

Wily wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.


But GW gave me such a nice leather binder and keychain. I have to go, right?


a leather binder!? They didn't give me shit!... except a 60k offer I turned down.

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flem
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby flem » Tue May 22, 2012 8:28 am

MrAnon wrote:I think we've established that law schools will take people with sub 3.0 GPAs. You are saying Northwestern is known for it? I guess that could mean any number of things about the place. I'm sure Northwestern is full of people who once upon a time reasoned "screw this college thing; I'm just going to get into law school and kill it there; that's all that matters". Of course then they run into classmates that have the school thing down pat and all the work experience in the world isn't going to help them write an exam.

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Wily
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Re: Fordham vs GW ($$)

Postby Wily » Tue May 22, 2012 9:59 am

Another question:
When Biglaw firms choose SA's or hire for full-time, do they look at undergrad GPA's? Someone from another forum says they do, but I haven't heard this before.




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