Warning

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 1:12 pm

:shock: :shock:
Last edited by dowu on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:53 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:23 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
Mississippi College of Law wrote: Good luck on the June LSAT.

If you want to begin law school this fall, I encourage you to apply to Mississippi College School of Law (MC Law). Each year we reserve seats in the class for June test takers. We even have merit scholarships for well-credentialed candidates.

If you apply now, we will have your application in hand and can give you an admissions decision promptly after your LSAT score is released. We have no application fee if you apply on line. Be sure to choose Mississippi College School of Law from the drop down menu when you complete your application through LSAC.

I hope to meet you if you come for a visit. We would be pleased to show you around our downtown campus. Our web site is a helpful source of information (http://www.law.mc.edu).

We are known for our advocacy program, our skills training, and our close relationship with judges and attorneys. Our professors are superb. The state capital of Jackson offers a great quality of life.

Call Jay (601-925-7170) or Hope (601-925-7150) if you want to talk about our school and our program of legal education.

Warm Regards,

Jim Rosenblatt
Dean and Professor of Law
Mississippi College School of Law
"Let Justice Roll"


I thought it was funny how they said "on line" as two separate words. Also, the bogus claims about having a quality advocacy program - what a crock of shit. They clearly are pulling shit out of their ass. If a school is going to send emails in an act of desperation to recruit students, they should just not. I understand that it's a business (though, it really shouldn't be), but it's just outright fucked up.


Now this email is actually ok. Nothing ethically wrong with this one IMO.

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 1:28 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:Now this email is actually ok. Nothing ethically wrong with this one IMO.


Well, the part that bothers me is that shitty law schools (with terrible job prospects) are emailing students, trying to get them to come to their school. It's fucked up, to me, in the sense that they're still open for business. In short, a lot of law schools need to be closed down. That's the reality of the situation.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:30 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Now this email is actually ok. Nothing ethically wrong with this one IMO.


Well, the part that bothers me is that shitty law schools (with terrible job prospects) are emailing students, trying to get them to come to their school. It's fucked up, to me, in the sense that they're still open for business. In short, a lot of law schools need to be closed down. That's the reality of the situation.


Yea I more or less agree with this. I just dont think mississippi is being borderline fraudulent like rutgers here.

Edit: Nevermind I thought we were talking their state flagship but it's not so yea close it down I agree.

iowalum
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Re: Warning

Postby iowalum » Mon May 21, 2012 1:40 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Now this email is actually ok. Nothing ethically wrong with this one IMO.


Well, the part that bothers me is that shitty law schools (with terrible job prospects) are emailing students, trying to get them to come to their school. It's fucked up, to me, in the sense that they're still open for business. In short, a lot of law schools need to be closed down. That's the reality of the situation.


I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.

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flem
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Re: Warning

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 1:41 pm

iowalum wrote:
I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.


lol

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:44 pm

iowalum wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Now this email is actually ok. Nothing ethically wrong with this one IMO.


Well, the part that bothers me is that shitty law schools (with terrible job prospects) are emailing students, trying to get them to come to their school. It's fucked up, to me, in the sense that they're still open for business. In short, a lot of law schools need to be closed down. That's the reality of the situation.


I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.


The problem though is that it affects everyone else as well. This whole "dont worry about it, personal responsibility, they are responsible for their own actions, etc" doesn't work when it causes problems for society in general. Take the real estate crash for example (yes I know it is very different than the student loan problem): everyone touted that the people who took out loans for houses they couldn't afford would say its their own fault,etc BUT we all saw how that negatively affected everyone in society in the long run!

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 1:45 pm

flem wrote:
iowalum wrote:
I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.


lol


Come on now. It's still shitty that schools like this are in the market.

Plus, students are going to take out loans to pay for this school and surprise surprise, they won't be able to pay them back. This not only affects them, but it affects others (read: whoever bites the bullet for unpaid student loans) as well.

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flem
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Re: Warning

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 1:47 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:
iowalum wrote:
I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.


lol


Come on now. It's still shitty that schools like this are in the market.

Plus, students are going to take out loans to pay for this school and surprise surprise, they won't be able to pay them back. This not only affects them, but it affects others (read: whoever bites the bullet for unpaid student loans) as well.


Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.

iowalum
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Re: Warning

Postby iowalum » Mon May 21, 2012 1:53 pm

flem wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:
iowalum wrote:
I agree that many of them should be shut down, but it's not their fault if prospective students aren't smart enough to figure out if its a good school or not before committing 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. If someone does that without doing their homework then they and the school deserve each other.


lol


Come on now. It's still shitty that schools like this are in the market.

Plus, students are going to take out loans to pay for this school and surprise surprise, they won't be able to pay them back. This not only affects them, but it affects others (read: whoever bites the bullet for unpaid student loans) as well.


Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 1:55 pm

flem wrote:Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


+1

If they shut down a lot of the schools, then the remaining schools could be picky (choose the best candidates) and it would stop a lot of people from entering the job market for lawyers. Im really not sure if I can think of any negative affect from shutting down all TTTs and TTTTs (bar state flagship schools), with the exception of people who work at those schools, losing their jobs. I still think this said action would result in a positive utility for the whole. ITE, this would force lenders to be more conservative and stop frequently lending out so much uninsured money, adding to the already massive unpaid student loan amount.
Last edited by dowu on Mon May 21, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 1:57 pm

iowalum wrote:I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).


This is not the problem. The problem is that the lenders are giving out hundreds of thousands of dollars to these people. That has a negative impact on society as a whole! It's not like we're punishing these people by not letting them go to a shitty school, the effect of a mass shutdown - as a matter of fact, we would be helping them by doing so.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:58 pm

The student does need to take responsibility. They aren't blameless, but when loans are given out as easily as they are it artificially skyrockets tuition for everyone else making it harder on everyone to afford to go. Not to mention the taxpayer picks up the burden when they default.

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 2:02 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:The student does need to take responsibility. They aren't blameless, but when loans are given out as easily as they are it artificially skyrockets tuition for everyone else making it harder on everyone to afford to go. Not to mention the taxpayer picks up the burden when they default.


For sure. I hope this discourse changes iowalum's perspective. The availability of so many law schools, and so many loans, coupled with stupidity, affects society as a whole. We can't ever stop people from being stupid, but we can stop so many schools from being in the market, which would significantly cut down the amount loans. In effect, this would significantly cut down the amount of loans that result in a default.
Last edited by dowu on Mon May 21, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: Warning

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 2:02 pm

iowalum wrote:I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).


I think you severely overestimate the critical thinking and research that the average (read: people who go to T3/T4 schools) is capable of.

People are morons when it comes to this stuff. I went to an undergrad with a for-profit toilet law school and people went there in droves. These were not really stupid people otherwise.

The average applicant looks at USNews, glances at the stats, thinks it's good enough at face value, and plunks down 6 figures on a worthless degree. They don't realize how fucked they are afterwards.

This is a lot more complicated than "Oh, they didn't research". There's been a culture fostered of getting more education is more important than anything else, regardless of where it's from. Combine that with the fact most people are sheltered and they trust stats put out by USNews and schools (and if you didn't know any better, why wouldn't you?), and that explains a lot.

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flem
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Re: Warning

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 2:05 pm

Make private lenders evaluate risk and decide if they want to loan someone $150K+ for a Cooley degree. They'd never get their money back, so they would never loan. It would effectively shut down a lot of these TTT schools.

Federal loan programs are a major part of the problem. The government has no risk because it's getting paid one way or another. You can't discharge them through bankruptcy anymore. They can garnish your wages. And they collect 7%ish interest while doing so. They make bank. It's some serious mafia-type lending shit.

The structure as is is a total failure. It shifts all of the risk to the individual. Government gets theirs no matter what, and schools get their money up front, removing any incentive they have to make sure they place kids in jobs. The fact that federal loan money flows to FOR-PROFIT institutions is even worse.

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 2:07 pm

flem wrote:
iowalum wrote:I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).


I think you severely overestimate the critical thinking and research that the average (read: people who go to T3/T4 schools) is capable of.

People are morons when it comes to this stuff. I went to an undergrad with a for-profit toilet law school and people went there in droves. These were not really stupid people otherwise.

The average applicant looks at USNews, glances at the stats, thinks it's good enough at face value, and plunks down 6 figures on a worthless degree. They don't realize how fucked they are afterwards.

This is a lot more complicated than "Oh, they didn't research". There's been a culture fostered of getting more education is more important than anything else, regardless of where it's from. Combine that with the fact most people are sheltered and they trust stats put out by USNews and schools (and if you didn't know any better, why wouldn't you?), and that explains a lot.



This is a great explanation of why people continue to choose TTT and TTTTs (even a lot of TT). It's not that a lot of them are stupid, really, as much as it is that this generation has been encouraged to go to school, at any cost. This is not necessarily a problem in itself, but I still think that only the people with the best stats should be getting into good schools. Yes, this would totally fuck me, since I'm a splitter, but I think that it would be better for the whole.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Warning

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon May 21, 2012 2:08 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


+1

If they shut down a lot of the schools, then the remaining schools could be picky (choose the best candidates) and it would stop a lot of people from entering the job market for lawyers. Im really not sure if I can think of any negative affect from shutting down all TTTs and TTTTs (bar state flagship schools), with the exception of people who work at those schools, losing their jobs. I still think this said action would result in a positive utility for the whole. ITE, this would force lenders to be more conservative and stop frequently lending out so much uninsured money, adding to the already massive unpaid student loan amount.


No one is lending "uninsured" money. The lender takes no risk as the government guarantees the loans. Shutting down half of the law schools would simply let the other half increase prices even further. Now if the government exited the student loan business the problems would basically fix themselves. Half of the schools would disappear, and the other half would lower tuition.

Or the government could take the alternative path and just allow the ABA to pull an AMA on the industry, severly limiting the number of people allowed in in the first place.

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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 2:10 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:
iowalum wrote:I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).


I think you severely overestimate the critical thinking and research that the average (read: people who go to T3/T4 schools) is capable of.

People are morons when it comes to this stuff. I went to an undergrad with a for-profit toilet law school and people went there in droves. These were not really stupid people otherwise.

The average applicant looks at USNews, glances at the stats, thinks it's good enough at face value, and plunks down 6 figures on a worthless degree. They don't realize how fucked they are afterwards.

This is a lot more complicated than "Oh, they didn't research". There's been a culture fostered of getting more education is more important than anything else, regardless of where it's from. Combine that with the fact most people are sheltered and they trust stats put out by USNews and schools (and if you didn't know any better, why wouldn't you?), and that explains a lot.



This is a great explanation of why people continue to choose TTT and TTTTs (even a lot of TT). It's not that a lot of them are stupid, really, as much as it is that this generation has been encouraged to go to school, at any cost. This is not necessarily a problem in itself, but I still think that only the people with the best stats should be getting into good schools. Yes, this would totally fuck me, since I'm a splitter, but I think that it would be better for the whole.


My main issue is the cost. A TTT can have a function. There is nothing wrong with TTTs if you are local and want to be a local lawyer. The problem is the governmet should not give a hundred thousand dollars out to accomplish this goal.
Last edited by RedBirds2011 on Mon May 21, 2012 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: Warning

Postby flem » Mon May 21, 2012 2:10 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:

This is a great explanation of why people continue to choose TTT and TTTTs (even a lot of TT). It's not that a lot of them are stupid, really, as much as it is that this generation has been encouraged to go to school, at any cost. This is not necessarily a problem in itself, but I still think that only the people with the best stats should be getting into good schools. Yes, this would totally fuck me, since I'm a splitter, but I think that it would be better for the whole.


Additionally, the American dream/pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality is toxic in this case - we get so much bullshit thrown at us about "Work hard and hustle and network" and "Just pass the bar and you'll be fine".

It's ridiculous.

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dowu
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Re: Warning

Postby dowu » Mon May 21, 2012 2:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


+1

If they shut down a lot of the schools, then the remaining schools could be picky (choose the best candidates) and it would stop a lot of people from entering the job market for lawyers. Im really not sure if I can think of any negative affect from shutting down all TTTs and TTTTs (bar state flagship schools), with the exception of people who work at those schools, losing their jobs. I still think this said action would result in a positive utility for the whole. ITE, this would force lenders to be more conservative and stop frequently lending out so much uninsured money, adding to the already massive unpaid student loan amount.


No one is lending "uninsured" money. The lender takes no risk as the government guarantees the loans. Shutting down half of the law schools would simply let the other half increase prices even further. Now if the government exited the student loan business the problems would basically fix themselves. Half of the schools would disappear, and the other half would lower tuition.

Or the government could take the alternative path and just allow the ABA to pull an AMA on the industry, severly limiting the number of people allowed in in the first place.



You're absolutely right. I guess the way I was trying to use "uninsured" was by showing that these loans are going to fuck everyone else, including the person taking them. Uninsured, to me, meant that they (the students) aren't getting shit back for them, aside from a piece of paper. Its a fuckin scam I tell ya!
Last edited by dowu on Mon May 21, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon May 21, 2012 2:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


+1

If they shut down a lot of the schools, then the remaining schools could be picky (choose the best candidates) and it would stop a lot of people from entering the job market for lawyers. Im really not sure if I can think of any negative affect from shutting down all TTTs and TTTTs (bar state flagship schools), with the exception of people who work at those schools, losing their jobs. I still think this said action would result in a positive utility for the whole. ITE, this would force lenders to be more conservative and stop frequently lending out so much uninsured money, adding to the already massive unpaid student loan amount.


No one is lending "uninsured" money. The lender takes no risk as the government guarantees the loans. Shutting down half of the law schools would simply let the other half increase prices even further. Now if the government exited the student loan business the problems would basically fix themselves. Half of the schools would disappear, and the other half would lower tuition.

Or the government could take the alternative path and just allow the ABA to pull an AMA on the industry, severly limiting the number of people allowed in in the first place.



This! The real problem is the ABA needs to stop being so fucking TTT and actually act like it cares about the profession. There are non prestigious medical schools that do just fine. No reason law can't be the same.

timbs4339
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Re: Warning

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 21, 2012 2:16 pm

iowalum wrote:


I'm not disagreeing that these schools are junk, but come on - if you think you're ready for the legal profession you should really be smart enough to do some basic research. The societal burden thing I suppose is a good point, but I'm not sure it really creates enough of an effect for me to not think these students should take responsibility for themselves. It sucks that these schools are disingenuous and possibly downright liars, but part of being an adult is having to make a judgement call about where to invest your time and money.

Personally, I think they should draw a line under the top 100 and just get rid of the rest, but it still doesn't absolve the students who attend for being either ignorant or not super intelligent (basically the same thing).


There is a hit to the profession as well. People cannot distinguish between good law schools (with the exception of maybe the big name ones) and shitty TTTs. We're already seeing a drop in applicants concentrated among people with higher scores- exactly the people we want going to law school. If law school becomes a refuge for those with literally no other options, people looking to escape their UG debt for another three years, or people with poor reasoning, research skills, or financial acumen, the public's perception of the profession is going to seriously decline. Law only has so much social capital to spend before people start to wonder why they let lawyers preserve a modern day guild.

It is also disconcerting that law schools essentially operate the same way as beauty schools, culinary schools, or shady for-profits and seminar companies. I've worked in consumer frauds before and the parallels between these two types of schools (the latter are routinely the subject of lawsuits and AG investigations) are scary. If it wasn't for the mental block that older lawyers have against believing their profession could be capable of such things, I've no doubt AG offices could investigate TTTT schools for violations of consumer protection laws.

timbs4339
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Re: Warning

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 21, 2012 2:18 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
flem wrote:Dude, it's completely terrible. Just don't forget that people are idiots and it's kind of shameful you can't trust supposed institutions of higher learning to be candid with employment stats. Remember, TLS is a bubble that most people are not on the inside of.


+1

If they shut down a lot of the schools, then the remaining schools could be picky (choose the best candidates) and it would stop a lot of people from entering the job market for lawyers. Im really not sure if I can think of any negative affect from shutting down all TTTs and TTTTs (bar state flagship schools), with the exception of people who work at those schools, losing their jobs. I still think this said action would result in a positive utility for the whole. ITE, this would force lenders to be more conservative and stop frequently lending out so much uninsured money, adding to the already massive unpaid student loan amount.


No one is lending "uninsured" money. The lender takes no risk as the government guarantees the loans. Shutting down half of the law schools would simply let the other half increase prices even further. Now if the government exited the student loan business the problems would basically fix themselves. Half of the schools would disappear, and the other half would lower tuition.

Or the government could take the alternative path and just allow the ABA to pull an AMA on the industry, severly limiting the number of people allowed in in the first place.



This! The real problem is the ABA needs to stop being so fucking TTT and actually act like it cares about the profession. There are non prestigious medical schools that do just fine. No reason law can't be the same.


I talked to a dean of a lower ranked state med school (like TTTT) and he said that it is extremely uncommon for a med student at his school to not get a job, you basically have to have a criminal record.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Warning

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 21, 2012 2:19 pm

More law schools received ABA accreditation due to a lawsuit against the ABA several years ago. The best solution is to once again make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. This will drive tuition costs lower & poorly performing law schools (re: employment) out of business. Blame credit card company lobbying for the current mess since they had the bankruptcy laws changed in 2005.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon May 21, 2012 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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