RedBirds2011 wrote: timbs4339 wrote: iowalum wrote:
I don't think you get that I'm agreeing with you (for the most part) - these schools are complete crap and should be shut down. But not putting at least some of the responsibility on the students is unrealistic. The only way they stay open is because people attend.
I think others are right here - the ABA needs to grow a pair and create some standards for the profession. Also, increased admin standards and debt that can be discharged. It's really a system-wide thing. But I still have no sympathy for someone who considers checking USNews enough research to justify borrowing $100k. I get the societal pressure to go to school, fake employment reporting, not being exposed to the right academic culture, etc. but 'not knowing better' is an excuse for a child, not a future lawyer. Spend 1 hour on the internet (or 5 minutes on TLS) and you'll figure out that this is one of the biggest decisions you will make and you need to invest wisely (i.e. - all law schools are not created equal). Much like the housing bubble analogy, the responsibility here is on several parties including the borrower.
It really does annoy me though that these schools are pushing up our tuition. Like I said before, shut 'em down.
Right, but I'm not sure what "putting responsibility on the students," actually solves. The students can't go back and redo their decisions- once you are in you are in. Chastising them doesn't help and probably makes things worse. Focusing energy on shouting PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY over and over at the people with the least bargaining power and ability to process information is a red herring. There's a large body of social science and psychological literature out there that suggests that people are especially prone to the cognitive biases that we see a lot in the people who come on this board asking for advice. Two I can think of that I see here all the time are confirmation and optimism bias (also known as "special snowflake syndrome."
I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.
My go this is so true. It is very often the weaker party that is blamed. So depressing to think of.
I agree with both of you, and I'm definitely not suggesting that blaming students solves anything (btw, I'm not normally a hardcore 'personal responsibility' person, I'm a straight-ticket dem and all for the welfare state when done correctly). And I don't believe that solutions should be put on students (LIKE I SAID close the schools, change loan stips, the students will follow. I get it.) I absolutely think that higher ed should be available to everyone - we should do it like many European countries: serve your country for 2 years then go to college for free.
of the solution needs to be encouraging students to be more educated about their decision. It seems like people here are quick to imply that students are entirely innocent in the problem and that being naive is an acceptable reason to drop $100k on a crap school and expect a unique outcome. More than blaming anyone I think I am just bewildered that anyone could go into this kind of endeavor without spending some serious time making sure they do the right thing. I can't IMAGINE feeling good about signing my life away for just whatever school looked good at the time.
Yet, I'm completely not sold on the 'cognitive bias' thing. It sounds like something people need to grow out of before they make a decision this important. The special snowflake thing is just immaturity in its finest form (I get that some people really are special. To you I apologize.)