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[Tiago Splitter]

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

The equally significant problem is the misguided governmental goal of "access" to higher education which led the government to guarantee student loans.

[dingbat]

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

The equally significant problem is the misguided governmental goal of "access" to higher education which led the government to guarantee student loans.

Basically, our government is very bad at execution.
The right idea often results in disastrous implementation

[iowalum]

I don't think you get that I'm agreeing with you (for the most part) - these schools are complete crap and should be shut down. But not putting at least some of the responsibility on the students is unrealistic. The only way they stay open is because people attend.

I think others are right here - the ABA needs to grow a pair and create some standards for the profession. Also, increased admin standards and debt that can be discharged. It's really a system-wide thing. But I still have no sympathy for someone who considers checking USNews enough research to justify borrowing $100k. I get the societal pressure to go to school, fake employment reporting, not being exposed to the right academic culture, etc. but 'not knowing better' is an excuse for a child, not a future lawyer. Spend 1 hour on the internet (or 5 minutes on TLS) and you'll figure out that this is one of the biggest decisions you will make and you need to invest wisely (i.e. - all law schools are not created equal). Much like the housing bubble analogy, the responsibility here is on several parties including the borrower.

It really does annoy me though that these schools are pushing up our tuition. Like I said before, shut 'em down.

Right, but I'm not sure what "putting responsibility on the students," actually solves. The students can't go back and redo their decisions- once you are in you are in. Chastising them doesn't help and probably makes things worse. Focusing energy on shouting PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY over and over at the people with the least bargaining power and ability to process information is a red herring. There's a large body of social science and psychological literature out there that suggests that people are especially prone to the cognitive biases that we see a lot in the people who come on this board asking for advice. Two I can think of that I see here all the time are confirmation and optimism bias (also known as "special snowflake syndrome."

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

My go this is so true. It is very often the weaker party that is blamed. So depressing to think of.

I agree with both of you, and I'm definitely not suggesting that blaming students solves anything (btw, I'm not normally a hardcore 'personal responsibility' person, I'm a straight-ticket dem and all for the welfare state when done correctly). And I don't believe that solutions should be put on students (LIKE I SAID close the schools, change loan stips, the students will follow. I get it.) I absolutely think that higher ed should be available to everyone - we should do it like many European countries: serve your country for 2 years then go to college for free.

BUT part of the solution needs to be encouraging students to be more educated about their decision. It seems like people here are quick to imply that students are entirely innocent in the problem and that being naive is an acceptable reason to drop $100k on a crap school and expect a unique outcome. More than blaming anyone I think I am just bewildered that anyone could go into this kind of endeavor without spending some serious time making sure they do the right thing. I can't IMAGINE feeling good about signing my life away for just whatever school looked good at the time.

Yet, I'm completely not sold on the 'cognitive bias' thing. It sounds like something people need to grow out of before they make a decision this important. The special snowflake thing is just immaturity in its finest form (I get that some people really are special. To you I apologize.)

[dresden doll]

Right, but I'm not sure what "putting responsibility on the students," actually solves. The students can't go back and redo their decisions- once you are in you are in. Chastising them doesn't help and probably makes things worse. Focusing energy on shouting PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY over and over at the people with the least bargaining power and ability to process information is a red herring. There's a large body of social science and psychological literature out there that suggests that people are especially prone to the cognitive biases that we see a lot in the people who come on this board asking for advice. Two I can think of that I see here all the time are confirmation and optimism bias (also known as "special snowflake syndrome."

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

THANK YOU. The 'let's blame the weakest party' mentality drives me batshit.

[dingbat]

batshit.

I didn't do it!

[iowalum]

Right, but I'm not sure what "putting responsibility on the students," actually solves. The students can't go back and redo their decisions- once you are in you are in. Chastising them doesn't help and probably makes things worse. Focusing energy on shouting PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY over and over at the people with the least bargaining power and ability to process information is a red herring. There's a large body of social science and psychological literature out there that suggests that people are especially prone to the cognitive biases that we see a lot in the people who come on this board asking for advice. Two I can think of that I see here all the time are confirmation and optimism bias (also known as "special snowflake syndrome."

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

THANK YOU. The 'let's blame the weakest party' mentality drives me batshit.

I get it. I'm with you. But you really don't even remotely think that students are responsible for the decision of where they choose to go to school? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if someone drops $100k on some completely crap stock without even looking at the market predictions/business model/reviews, etc. and loses everything is there not at least a little bit of 'Hey, maybe you should have checked that out a little first?'. Really?

To each their own, I don't really care if people choose to make these decisions and I think the schools are largely to blame. I just can't believe students wouldn't think to make sure they were investing wisely.

[rinkrat19]

I guess I'm just tired of the prevailing mentality in this country which always blames the weakest party to the transaction. Any solutions then fall hardest on these people. We should be trying to shut down some schools and cap tuition at other schools no matter how many tenured profs and deans get hurt.

The equally significant problem is the misguided governmental goal of "access" to higher education which led the government to guarantee student loans.

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Additionally, schools should be evaluated somehow on the quality of their education (whether by employment rates or by other metrics) and that rating used to determine whether their tuition is eligible to be paid with government loans (and GI Bill benefits, while we're at it). No one should be able to get government loans to pay for Ave Maria Law, but a poor kid should absolutely have easy access to loans to pay for MIT or Harvard.

If no one can get loans to pay for the shitty schools, no one will go there. They'll eventually fail.

[flem]

I get it. I'm with you. But you really don't even remotely think that students are responsible for the decision of where they choose to go to school? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if someone drops $100k on some completely crap stock without even looking at the market predictions/business model/reviews, etc. and loses everything is there not at least a little bit of 'Hey, maybe you should have checked that out a little first?'. Really?

To each their own, I don't really care if people choose to make these decisions and I think the schools are largely to blame. I just can't believe students wouldn't think to make sure they were investing wisely.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that students should be responsible. I just think you're vastly underestimating how often otherwise "smart" people make this poor decision. Most people don't know or pay attention to the law school scam coverage. Why wouldn't you be able to trust advertised employment stats by a supposed institution of higher learning?

[dingbat]

Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college,"

well, there are many countries where this works perfectly fine.

[iowalum]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

[flem]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

So go to trade school. College isn't for everyone. It's bullshit that it's pushed on people like it is.

[iowalum]

I get it. I'm with you. But you really don't even remotely think that students are responsible for the decision of where they choose to go to school? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if someone drops $100k on some completely crap stock without even looking at the market predictions/business model/reviews, etc. and loses everything is there not at least a little bit of 'Hey, maybe you should have checked that out a little first?'. Really?

To each their own, I don't really care if people choose to make these decisions and I think the schools are largely to blame. I just can't believe students wouldn't think to make sure they were investing wisely.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that students should be responsible. I just think you're vastly underestimating how often otherwise "smart" people make this poor decision. Most people don't know or pay attention to the law school scam coverage. Why wouldn't you be able to trust advertised employment stats by a supposed institution of higher learning?

Again, this is the 'naive' argument. If this was something less important I would understand, but this can literally determine the rest of your life and I think it deserves a little more consideration. I mean, who in the world sees and ad for Ave Maria or whatever and goes 'Hey, without any further research I am going to throw thousands of dollars at these people'? It would be like hearing a one-liner from a guy at the bar and saying 'I don't know anything else about you... want to get married?'.

[iowalum]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

So go to trade school. College isn't for everyone. It's bullshit that it's pushed on people like it is.

For me trade school = college (of some sort). It doesn't matter what kind of education you get, but everyone should get some. And I think many people around the world would feel lucky to have college pushed on them.

[flem]

Again, this is the 'naive' argument. If this was something less important I would understand, but this can literally determine the rest of your life and I think it deserves a little more consideration. I mean, who in the world sees and ad for Ave Maria or whatever and goes 'Hey, without any further research I am going to throw thousands of dollars at these people'? It would be like hearing a one-liner from a guy at the bar and saying 'I don't know anything else about you... want to get married?'.

Apparently enough of them to fill their classes every year, along with every other TTT/TTTT in existence.

[dingbat]

It would be like hearing a one-liner from a guy at the bar and saying 'I don't know anything else about you... want to get married?'.

I worked for a shitty Vietnamese restaurant in undergrad.

One night, it was completely empty until two people walked in around 8:00; naturally, after doing nothing for hours on end, I was inclined to eavesdrop from behind the cash register.

First off, the woman who entered was wearing a black t-shirt, shorts, and a pair of converse all stars. The black t-shirt states, in white letters, "Just Married." The guy with her looks like Kid Rock with a bandana. The first thing I hear the woman say is "My favorite wedding present so far has to be these new all stars. Thanks, Sug." Sug, as in Sugar, in the manner Nancy Gribble from KOTH.

Apparently this is their honeymoon, and they went out on their first date after the dude rando messaged her on facebook/spoke on the phone prior to any contact at all. She states about the phone call, "I didn't know we was havin phone sex until you said that you came into the whiskey...and that the milk done curdled."

shook mhs

[Excellent117]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

Simply going to college for an education doesn't make you more intelligent/more valuable to society. I know a lot of people who just drank their way through college and didn't learn anything useful. I would amend rinkrat's sentiments to something along the lines of "everyone who needs government aid to obtain higher education should be able to get it if it is deserved and will be a worthwhile investment"...which would have to be based on some sort of meritocracy.

[dingbat]

which would have to be based on some sort of meritocracy.

which country do you live in?

[rinkrat19]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

Everyone deserves the chance to succeed at something. Some people are not suited for higher education or the jobs that result from it (or don't result from it, as the case may be). The fallacy that everyone deserves to go to college is why the value of a college degree is so diluted. There should be no shame in learning a trade--I can't fix a car or install electrical lines, and I respect the people who do. We'd be better off as a society if we didn't push COLLEGE OR BUST on everyone. Not everyone can be a theoretical physicist or even a lawyer, and we damn well shouldn't treat choosing a non-college path as 'failure.'

edited for spelling

[rinkrat19]

I think there needs to be some sort of meritocracy. Smart people of any SES should be able to get loans. Stupid people should not. Our motto shouldn't be 'everyone should be able to go to college," it should be "everyone who deserves it should be able to go to college."

Now this I disagree with. EVERYONE deserves an education, just not at a piece of crap school, and not necessarily law.

So go to trade school. College isn't for everyone. It's bullshit that it's pushed on people like it is.

For me trade school = college (of some sort). It doesn't matter what kind of education you get, but everyone should get some. And I think many people around the world would feel lucky to have college pushed on them.

Trade school =/= college. I work with electrical linemen. They're highly-trained, not at all dumb, and make damn good money, but they are not college-educated. Line school is an example of a trade school that we should ENCOURAGE kids to go to. These guys are far better off than an aimless, uninspired liberal arts student who managed all Cs. And yet a lot of people would look down on their kids wanting to go to line school instead of getting a useless degree at Podunk State U.

[dingbat]

For me trade school = college (of some sort). It doesn't matter what kind of education you get, but everyone should get some. And I think many people around the world would feel lucky to have college pushed on them.

Trade school =/= college. I work with electrical linemen. They're highly-trained, not at all dumb, and make damn good money, but they are not college-educated. Line school is an example of a trade school that we should ENCOURAGE kids to go to. These guys are far better off than an aimless, uninspired liberal arts student who managed all Cs. And yet a lot of people would look down on their kids wanting to go to line school instead of getting a useless degree at Podunk State U.[/quote]
My neighbor installs phone lines for verizon. He makes close to 6 figures

My brother who is a surgeon has said in all honesty that in his next life he'd rather be a plumber (except for the fact that he likes cutting people)

[dowu]

[dresden doll]

I get it. I'm with you. But you really don't even remotely think that students are responsible for the decision of where they choose to go to school? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if someone drops $100k on some completely crap stock without even looking at the market predictions/business model/reviews, etc. and loses everything is there not at least a little bit of 'Hey, maybe you should have checked that out a little first?'. Really?

I never made the argument that people shouldn't think before they invest, so I'm not sure why you'd ask that.

[dowu]

*edit.

[Excellent117]

Again, this is the 'naive' argument. If this was something less important I would understand, but this can literally determine the rest of your life and I think it deserves a little more consideration. I mean, who in the world sees and ad for Ave Maria or whatever and goes 'Hey, without any further research I am going to throw thousands of dollars at these people'? It would be like hearing a one-liner from a guy at the bar and saying 'I don't know anything else about you... want to get married?'.

The point is this: there is way more misrepresented information out there than there is information about the law school scam. People most likely are doing research, whatever that may be, and just seem to be missing out on information pertinent to making the right decision.

Playing from your analogy, if I met a girl at the bar who told me all about how awesome she is, and then I went to her house and thought it was nice, I talked to her friends who all had good things to say, she had a decent job, etc... would it be my fault to find out 3 years later that she was a convicted murderer with 180k in credit card debt? Was I supposed to do a background and credit check on her before I decided, 3 years later, to marry her?

In much the same way, most law schools are putting out flowery information that makes their law schools seem like a good idea. This is a bad practice and one that needs to be further exposed.

You've clearly never seen a Free Credit Report .com commercial...

[dowu]

You've clearly never seen a Free Credit Report .com commercial...

Lol, whatever dude! You know what I'm trying to say.