What's the skinny on BYU?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby TaipeiMort » Wed May 23, 2012 10:53 am

ru2486 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:People shouldn't think it is so terrible to crap on other people's beliefs. Crapping on other people's beliefs is how enlightenment advances.

Most Mormons I've met are polite if boring people who happen to support a fairly far-fetched, anti-gay and historically racist organization. I don't mind the first half of the sentence as much as the latter half of it. Going to BYU would bind you into supporting something that is inextricably tied to that organization. I would feel bad going to BYU for that reason even if BYU weren't a middling-at-best school with little but social suicide and a quasi-police-state existence to offer a student like the OP.


I hate to break it to you buddy but there are a lot of LDS attorneys. This sort of attitude will get you about as far in the legal profession as sporting a swastika tattoo and a copy of Mein Kampf on your bookshelf. There is a place and time for theological prognostication; that time is college.


I'm a stupid 0L, but I couldn't resist this. I respect Veyron's posts on everything, but it seems as though he has lost Godwin's Law. I I can't imagine Veyron meant an actual, equitable equation between the Nazis and those who object to the politically pernicious influence of religious fundamentalists like LDS fundamentalists, evangelical fundamentalists, Catholic fundamentalists, etc. on our political culture.

I'll allow my ignorance to stand in full display here, as it is enlightening to learn from those smarter than me (no, this is not sarcasm).


His point was that there are a lot of Mormon attorneys, just like Jewish attorneys. There may be more Mormon attorneys than Catholic and Evangelical attorneys (at least practicing Catholic and Evangelicals) at biglaw firms. Putting something specifically offensive to Jewish attorneys on your bookshelf is similar (but probably much worse because there are so many more).

What is an LDS/Catholic/Evangelical fundamentalist and how do they have a pernicious influence on political culture? I think you mean socially conservative religious people... if so, call a spade a spade.

Like that socially conservative religious dude who flaunts his offensive-to-some beliefs, you may be in trouble down the line for looking down on social conservatives, as there are a lot of them in law-related jobs. Just because it is more PC to dislike social conservatives than racial groups, feminists, LGBT people, etc., doesn't mean that it would be any more career destroying or caustic in the employment world to make these views manifest. They hold their beliefs as close to their identity as liberal social groups do, and will be just as offended for a close-minded, non-fair-handed way of viewing them.

Badidea
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 3:18 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Badidea » Wed May 23, 2012 11:22 am

The fact that it's not advisable to broadcast one's thoughts about religion (or politics or any other sensitive topic) in public or in the workplace says very little about the truth or validity of those beliefs.

Illustration: As one who is intimately and profoundly familiar with Mormon doctrine, culture, and history, I think the religion is stupid. Full stop. I also hold the related but potentially more offensive belief that religion is a blight on the human race, with the upsides being far outweighed by the downsides.

But I don't have "Religion Suks" tattooed on my forehead. Part of being a successful adult is knowing when and where to open your big mouth.

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Veyron » Wed May 23, 2012 11:24 am

They are the same in that their effects on your career will be the same (at least outside of PI). I know that this is going to sound strange coming from me but this is one area where, if you dont got something nice to say, dont say nuttin’.

P.S. You may argue that you understand the appropriate time and place to engage in criticism but the fact that you inserted your opinions into this thread instead if creating a new thread in the lounge or keeping your thoughts beteeen you and your friends argues that you should at least be cognizant that might not be the case yet.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 23, 2012 1:21 pm

So long as it is helpful to a secular prospective applicant, I think it is fine in this thread. I think most of what has been said here is arguably worth considering for a secular prospective applicant, even if for nothing more than to see the kinds of discussions that could arise when his/her future school is brought up in conversation.

I'd never tell an uber religious person that they were crazy, a devoted environmentalist that they were a hypocrite, or a committed atheist that it takes a lot of faith to "know" that there is no God, but that doesn't mean I won't say some of those things anonymously on the inter-webs. I think it can not only be fun, but therapeutic and even educational. Here I'll go:

Most people are too insecure to think for themselves. They end up clinging to social constructions in order to feel smart, loved, worthy, etc. Amright? Who the fuck knows. But someone like me should probably stay the hell away from BYU, or any other place that pretends to have it all figured out.

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Veyron » Wed May 23, 2012 1:40 pm

Problem is, it's kinda hard to know who those people are in advance.

User avatar
skers
Posts: 4950
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:33 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby skers » Wed May 23, 2012 1:45 pm

Honestly, it's pretty fucking surprising how often people lay into Mormons without fuckall knowledge of the religious affiliation of those around them.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 pm

Veyron wrote:Problem is, it's kinda hard to know who those people are in advance.


Hmm.. Aside from Religions, which you must admit usually fall into that category, I agree with you. This is why badidea told us to keep our mouths shut in public-- very, very good advice.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 23, 2012 1:54 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Honestly, it's pretty fucking surprising how often people lay into Mormons without fuckall knowledge of the religious affiliation of those around them.


Like there are a lot of people who do not understand the religious affiliations of the non-morman people around them? I'd appreciate you expounding on that, if you please.

EdgarWinter
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby EdgarWinter » Wed May 23, 2012 11:40 pm

Veyron wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:People shouldn't think it is so terrible to crap on other people's beliefs. Crapping on other people's beliefs is how enlightenment advances.

Most Mormons I've met are polite if boring people who happen to support a fairly far-fetched, anti-gay and historically racist organization. I don't mind the first half of the sentence as much as the latter half of it. Going to BYU would bind you into supporting something that is inextricably tied to that organization. I would feel bad going to BYU for that reason even if BYU weren't a middling-at-best school with little but social suicide and a quasi-police-state existence to offer a student like the OP.


I hate to break it to you buddy but there are a lot of LDS attorneys. This sort of attitude will get you about as far in the legal profession as sporting a swastika tattoo and a copy of Mein Kampf on your bookshelf. There is a place and time for theological prognostication; that time is college.


Hate to break it to you but saying "Mormonism* is evil and BYU is a shitthole" on an anonymous internet forum does not correlate to saying same in front of Mormon hiring partner. Nice of you to make totally unwarranted assumptions. There is a time for holding principles and voicing them wherever it is safe to do so; that time is life. If you're going to pontificate at least don't tell me things I already know, buddy lol.

*note, again, that it's the collective thing, not the individual people within it (well, most of them anyway) that I/rational thinking people believe is evil.

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Veyron » Wed May 23, 2012 11:57 pm

*Attending Chicago*

It all makes so much sense now....

User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby TaipeiMort » Thu May 24, 2012 12:02 am

Like there are a lot of people who do not understand the religious affiliations of the non-morman people around them? I'd appreciate you expounding on that, if you please.[/quote]

Has happened to me and many others I know. People say crap about Mormons not knowing that one of the people hanging with them is Mormon. Happened to 1Ls this year at my school. People go off without a filter on Mormons in ways that they never would with pretty much any religion (except for Islam). It is not a big deal though. Most Mormons don't care at all and are good sports about it. Probably because most of us have served as missionaries in areas where people would throw down on us pretty much daily for our beliefs.

To be fair, it is hard to think of a group that likes Mormons much-- Leftists don't like us because we believe in male-female, marriage only sexual relations, and a bunch of racist Mormons kept black people out of our ministry for nearly 100 years. Social conservatives don't like us because we believe that God and Jesus are different people, have a purported second book of scripture, and a lay ministry. Libertarians don't like us because many believe in increased environmental regulation and social welfare programs. Women don't like us because of the lack of encouragement provided to women in the church to seek out meritorious employment/ career advancement. Men don't like us because many of our men are effeminate, and we don't drink or go to strip clubs.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11725
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby kalvano » Thu May 24, 2012 1:32 am

Huh. Mormons don't sound evil, just boring.

EdgarWinter
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby EdgarWinter » Thu May 24, 2012 2:09 am

Veyron: Oh crap I said a stupid thing and got called on it. What to do...wait! I'll try a snarky one-liner that plays on unfounded stereotypes of law school student bodies. Brilliant!

TaipeiMort wrote:To be fair, it is hard to think of a group that likes Mormons much-- Leftists don't like us because we believe in male-female, marriage only sexual relations and attempt to legislate those beliefs upon the entire country, and the vast majority of our church was racist for nearly 100 years...


FTFY. In the first case I think it's important to note that there is a huge difference between believing something is wrong and trying to forbid others to do that wrong, especially when there is no victim to the wrong outside of the supposed wrong-doers themselves (unlike other social issues like abortion or whatever). That's why people get pissed at Mormonism over that issue.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4858
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Borhas » Thu May 24, 2012 11:05 am

So which groups haven't been "historically racist?" The LDS as a whole isn't racist now, though of course plenty of individuals probably have that flaw.

User avatar
joemoviebuff
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:51 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby joemoviebuff » Thu May 24, 2012 11:15 am

EdgarWinter wrote:
Veyron wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:People shouldn't think it is so terrible to crap on other people's beliefs. Crapping on other people's beliefs is how enlightenment advances.

Most Mormons I've met are polite if boring people who happen to support a fairly far-fetched, anti-gay and historically racist organization. I don't mind the first half of the sentence as much as the latter half of it. Going to BYU would bind you into supporting something that is inextricably tied to that organization. I would feel bad going to BYU for that reason even if BYU weren't a middling-at-best school with little but social suicide and a quasi-police-state existence to offer a student like the OP.


I hate to break it to you buddy but there are a lot of LDS attorneys. This sort of attitude will get you about as far in the legal profession as sporting a swastika tattoo and a copy of Mein Kampf on your bookshelf. There is a place and time for theological prognostication; that time is college.


Hate to break it to you but saying "Mormonism* is evil and BYU is a shitthole" on an anonymous internet forum does not correlate to saying same in front of Mormon hiring partner. Nice of you to make totally unwarranted assumptions. There is a time for holding principles and voicing them wherever it is safe to do so; that time is life. If you're going to pontificate at least don't tell me things I already know, buddy lol.


--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4858
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Borhas » Thu May 24, 2012 11:21 am

:lol: :lol:

User avatar
ocajavati
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:15 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby ocajavati » Fri May 25, 2012 7:28 pm

My girlfriend is Mormon.

Drinks coke and misses church, due to the sheer distance she has to commune to get to a LDS church around here.

But otherwise a devout Mormon. She's real chill about everything, though I know she wants to convert me at some point...

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun May 27, 2012 10:20 pm

Most Mormons I know are pretty chill. And as for Mormonism being historically racist, wasn't our entire fucking country historically racist? Does that mean we should all move to Canada?

User avatar
MormonChristian
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:33 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby MormonChristian » Mon May 28, 2012 1:43 pm

BYU Grad, Non-Mormon, and Former Supreme Court Justice


Image

User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon May 28, 2012 8:12 pm

MormonChristian wrote:BYU Grad, Non-Mormon, and Former Supreme Court Justice


Image


BYU grad, Mormon, excellent airplane hijacker

Image

Seriously though. BYU is a good, not great school if you aren't Mormon. Also, I don't think any Mormon should attend if they are accepted into a T20 school. Place is a bloodbath. Extremely rigorous. Married men willing to work 80 hours per week in order to claw into the top ten percent to get a job. It must be said though that those that do win the deathmatch at BYU get awesome, awesome jobs (Cravath, Quinn, V15 NYC biglaw, California tech firms, etc.).

User avatar
MormonChristian
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:33 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby MormonChristian » Mon May 28, 2012 8:29 pm

BYU Grad, Non-Mormon, Judge on the 9th Circuit.

Most famous for writing the Majority Opinion blocking Arizona SB 1070


Image

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11725
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby kalvano » Mon May 28, 2012 11:51 pm

Posting pictures of people who graduated from a school and achieved success may be the dumbest and least-compelling argument in the history of ever.

Pretty much any decent school will have some standout graduates. That proves nothing. And no one is saying that BYU is a bad law school. The same advice to not go would hold true if it were a Catholic / Baptist / whatever school that was really into being a religious school.

User avatar
MormonChristian
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:33 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby MormonChristian » Tue May 29, 2012 12:20 am

kalvano wrote:Posting pictures of people who graduated from a school and achieved success may be the dumbest and least-compelling argument in the history of ever.

Pretty much any decent school will have some standout graduates. That proves nothing. And no one is saying that BYU is a bad law school. The same advice to not go would hold true if it were a Catholic / Baptist / whatever school that was really into being a religious school.



Speaking of dumb and non-compelling arguments.......

Why don't you try and stay on subject?


The argument is, is whether non-Mormons could or should go to BYU and whether or not they can be successful afterwards. So in your history of "ever", you should focus on the history of ever.

Or you can jump into the argument and create a fictitious argument and then knock your fictitious argument down and feel good about your stellar debating skills.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11725
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby kalvano » Tue May 29, 2012 12:32 am

MormonChristian wrote:
kalvano wrote:Posting pictures of people who graduated from a school and achieved success may be the dumbest and least-compelling argument in the history of ever.

Pretty much any decent school will have some standout graduates. That proves nothing. And no one is saying that BYU is a bad law school. The same advice to not go would hold true if it were a Catholic / Baptist / whatever school that was really into being a religious school.



Speaking of dumb and non-compelling arguments.......

Why don't you try and stay on subject?


The argument is, is whether non-Mormons could or should go to BYU and whether or not they can be successful afterwards. So in your history of "ever", you should focus on the history of ever.

Or you can jump into the argument and create a fictitious argument and then knock your fictitious argument down and feel good about your stellar debating skills.



So referencing your response and telling you it's not a very good or compelling argument to cherry-pick a couple of examples and infer that that is representative of non-Mormons who attend BYU is creating a fictitious argument? I guess if "fictitious" is synonymous with "awesome" in your dictionary.

Of course they can be succesful. That possibility exists for anyone from any law school. The question is not one of possibility but of likelihood. Posting pictures of SCOTUS Justices and federal judges isn't likely for anyone outside a few select schools, particularly in this day and age. It would be like me posting a picture of Harriet Miers if someone asked if they should attend SMU.

User avatar
fanmingrui
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: What's the skinny on BYU?

Postby fanmingrui » Tue May 29, 2012 12:42 am

My apologies, kalvano. Most of us (Mormons) aren't as abrasive as this guy. Perhaps he's an elaborate flame?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: historyengland95 and 7 guests