Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Columbia 20K total vs. Northwestern full ride vs. UCLA full ride

Columbia
19
14%
Northwestern
108
81%
UCLA
7
5%
 
Total votes: 134

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Samara
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Samara » Sun May 13, 2012 12:06 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

LOL One of your best posts.

I have to admit, I expected OP to stubbornly attempt to justify choosing UCLA. I did not expect all this pro-CLS nonsense. What could your career goal possibly be that the CLS faculty, etc. is #1 and the NU faculty, etc. is non-existent? Because that would be the only way you could even justify considering CLS for one second. Then, after one second, you'd wake up to reality and choose NU. OP, if you end up at NU, I hope you're in my section.

kaveman
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby kaveman » Sun May 13, 2012 12:29 pm

sweetlou wrote:
kaveman wrote:OP: UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.


I'm pretty sure you're just bitter that you live in Ohio kaveman... or Pittsburgh, Detroit, Minneapolis, or some crappy east coast city like Boston or Baltimore.... You're not from New York (at least not the city) because New Yorker's wouldn't make a passive aggressive attack on LA, their city is too impressive for that. You're not from Miami because despite the cities' inferiority complex in comparison to LA the attack wouldn't be aimed at idiots as Miami has plenty of those (or at least is thought to have). You're not from another CA city because they would have far better points (and a better knowledge base) with which to attack LA.

I'm assuming your attack on LA was aimed at perceptions of Hollywood, however, remember we are all planning on being lawyers and practicing law in LA isn't so different from other urban areas (the only increased connection to hollywood outside of a few divorce lawyers and estate planners is entertainment law) and given the fact that the OP doesn't seem to be interested in entertainment law that connection is invalid.

Yes kaveman (a fitting name if it refers to your level of intellect) I am of course from LA and if your perception were true (which it isn't, at least not within the legal sector) then you should move here because that would mean that LA is the one place you could actually thrive.


What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I grew up, and live, in LA. Thanks for proving my point.

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Greenandgold
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Greenandgold » Sun May 13, 2012 12:57 pm

kaveman wrote:
sweetlou wrote:
kaveman wrote:OP: UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.


I'm pretty sure you're just bitter that you live in Ohio kaveman... or Pittsburgh, Detroit, Minneapolis, or some crappy east coast city like Boston or Baltimore.... You're not from New York (at least not the city) because New Yorker's wouldn't make a passive aggressive attack on LA, their city is too impressive for that. You're not from Miami because despite the cities' inferiority complex in comparison to LA the attack wouldn't be aimed at idiots as Miami has plenty of those (or at least is thought to have). You're not from another CA city because they would have far better points (and a better knowledge base) with which to attack LA.

I'm assuming your attack on LA was aimed at perceptions of Hollywood, however, remember we are all planning on being lawyers and practicing law in LA isn't so different from other urban areas (the only increased connection to hollywood outside of a few divorce lawyers and estate planners is entertainment law) and given the fact that the OP doesn't seem to be interested in entertainment law that connection is invalid.

Yes kaveman (a fitting name if it refers to your level of intellect) I am of course from LA and if your perception were true (which it isn't, at least not within the legal sector) then you should move here because that would mean that LA is the one place you could actually thrive.


What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I grew up, and live, in LA. Thanks for proving my point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAOxY_nH ... ata_player

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thelawyler
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby thelawyler » Sun May 13, 2012 1:29 pm

kaveman wrote:OP: Forget all these haters man. Based on this thread, you're actually correct to be choosing between Columbia and UCLA. Columbia because it will provide the best prospects for employment at the bottom of the class. UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.


I'm going to admit... I laughed. hahahaha.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby crumpetsandtea » Sun May 13, 2012 3:16 pm

By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.

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kwais
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby kwais » Sun May 13, 2012 3:19 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school, I'm fairly sure having class with you would make me want to maul myself.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


right, because this self-conscious post screams "I'm a blast to go to school with"

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby crumpetsandtea » Sun May 13, 2012 3:21 pm

kwais wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school, I'm fairly sure having class with you would make me want to maul myself.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


right, because this self-conscious post screams "I'm a blast to go to school with"

Oh, I'm a bitch to go to school with. Trust me, everyone on these boards knows that already.

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Samara
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Samara » Sun May 13, 2012 3:21 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
kwais wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school, I'm fairly sure having class with you would make me want to maul myself.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


right, because this self-conscious post screams "I'm a blast to go to school with"

Oh, I'm a bitch to go to school with. Trust me, everyone on these boards knows that already.

<3

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby crumpetsandtea » Sun May 13, 2012 3:22 pm

Samara wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:Oh, I'm a bitch to go to school with. Trust me, everyone on these boards knows that already.

<3

<3

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kwais
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby kwais » Sun May 13, 2012 3:23 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
kwais wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school, I'm fairly sure having class with you would make me want to maul myself.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


right, because this self-conscious post screams "I'm a blast to go to school with"

Oh, I'm a bitch to go to school with. Trust me, everyone on these boards knows that already.


oh, good for you

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby crumpetsandtea » Sun May 13, 2012 3:26 pm

kwais wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
kwais wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:By all means, go to CLS. Let someone more deserving have that scholarship money at NU. We don't need people in our incoming class who are going to wish they were at a 'more preftigious' school, I'm fairly sure having class with you would make me want to maul myself.

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


right, because this self-conscious post screams "I'm a blast to go to school with"

Oh, I'm a bitch to go to school with. Trust me, everyone on these boards knows that already.


oh, good for you

ty ty

bendurnotes4me
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby bendurnotes4me » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:04 am

ConfidenceMan2 wrote:Columbia isn't worth 100k+ more than Northwestern, but if you'd always feel like you're missing out unless you go to Columbia, it's fine to go there. You seem to be looking for validation.

If you're truly just on the fence, you should suck it up and go to Northwestern.



Columbia is absolutely worth 100K more than Northwestern. Many of the top firms don't even interview outside of the top 5. So depends on your goals a bit - if you want to work for an elite firm, you need to go to an elite school.

ahnhub
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:25 am

bendurnotes4me wrote: Columbia is absolutely worth 100K more than Northwestern. Many of the top firms don't even interview outside of the top 5. So depends on your goals a bit - if you want to work for an elite firm, you need to go to an elite school.


Well this is gonna bring some hate down on you. Which firms are you referring to?

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rayiner
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:53 am

bendurnotes4me wrote:
ConfidenceMan2 wrote:Columbia isn't worth 100k+ more than Northwestern, but if you'd always feel like you're missing out unless you go to Columbia, it's fine to go there. You seem to be looking for validation.

If you're truly just on the fence, you should suck it up and go to Northwestern.


Columbia is absolutely worth 100K more than Northwestern. Many of the top firms don't even interview outside of the top 5. So depends on your goals a bit - if you want to work for an elite firm, you need to go to an elite school.


The only "elite" firm CLS would be really better for than NU is WLRK. Places like Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, Susman, etc, seem to not distinguish between the non-HYS T14. You need top 5% at any of them to have a good shot.

I would say Harvard is worth $100k more than Northwestern, but Harvard is in a totally different league from Columbia when it comes to the tippy-top of the profession (boutiques with low-leverage, federal clerkships, etc).

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:06 am

bendurnotes4me wrote:
ConfidenceMan2 wrote:Columbia isn't worth 100k+ more than Northwestern, but if you'd always feel like you're missing out unless you go to Columbia, it's fine to go there. You seem to be looking for validation.

If you're truly just on the fence, you should suck it up and go to Northwestern.



Columbia is absolutely worth 100K more than Northwestern. Many of the top firms don't even interview outside of the top 5. So depends on your goals a bit - if you want to work for an elite firm, you need to go to an elite school.


It absolutely isn't. You're looking at utterly marginal differences in employment prospects. The difference is mostly prefstige

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rayiner
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:09 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
bendurnotes4me wrote:

Columbia is absolutely worth 100K more than Northwestern. Many of the top firms don't even interview outside of the top 5. So depends on your goals a bit - if you want to work for an elite firm, you need to go to an elite school.


It absolutely isn't. You're looking at utterly marginal differences in employment prospects. The difference is mostly prefstige


It's not even just preftige. It's preftige just in NYC. If you're going to go to a school for preftige (and as a brown person, I think that's totally okay!) go to Harvard. My family in Bangladesh knows what Harvard is. There are starving villagers in Ethipoia that have heard of Harvard. Even people in California think Columbia is a country in Latin America.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:11 am

Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?

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rayiner
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:20 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?


I'd have a hard time turning down full ride NU for a school that wasn't HYS.

Well I guess the question is $100k difference between Columbia and Northwestern. At that level I think it's entirely dependent on your risk tolerance and your estimation of post big-law salaries. According to the latest statistics, Columbia buys you a 10% safety net over Northwestern. If you're willing to pay $100k more for Columbia, you're betting you can make $100k / 0.1 = $1m post-tax (= $1.5-1.65m pre-tax) by getting big law than by not getting it.

Is that a reasonable bet? I believe you can grind it out for 5-6 years in big law as long as you can put in the hours, and get a stable job paying $150k or so afterward. So I think over a 35-year career, yeah, you might be able to make $1.5m pre-tax more in a big firm career trajectory than at a small firm career trajectory. So I might very well pay $100k more for Columbia, but that's probably the outer boundary, I'm not risk-averse, and I'm pretty optimistic re: post big firm career prospects.

My disagreement with bendurnotes4me is not so much the final number, but the methodology. From all of the data I have seen, Columbia doesn't give you materially different options than Northwestern. Top 1/3 at Columbia might get CSM and top 1/3 at Northwestern might get Kirkland, but top 1/4 at Northwestern has a good shot at STB or DPW and top 20% at Northwestern can get CSM too. Unless you get WLRK, the other V20 are pretty fungible (with exceptions). And guess what? The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

When you look at jobs that really are materially different, firms like Munger or Williams and Connolly where you have a solid shot at partner, Columbia doesn't seem to help at all. HYS does, but Columbia doesn't.

The only thing left is the extra safety net--the 10% or so better chance of landing a big firm job. That's what Columbia is worth over NU. It's not a trivial thing, and might be worth $100k to some, but that's what you need to look at, not preftige in the abstract or access to "elite" firms, because Columbia doesn't give you either of those.
Last edited by rayiner on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:51 am

rayiner wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?


I'd have a hard time turning down full ride NU for a school that wasn't HYS.

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shumpshump
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby shumpshump » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:06 am

crumpetsandtea wrote:Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


Why would he be at a PI job with no LRAP? Doesn't Columbia have a good LRAP?

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Kikero
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Kikero » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:14 am

shumpshump wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.


Why would he be at a PI job with no LRAP? Doesn't Columbia have a good LRAP?


He said his spouse makes too much money to qualify. (or maybe just that with his spouse's income they wouldn't qualify together, kinda hard to tell with all the posts being deleted.)

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Samara
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Samara » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:24 am

rayiner wrote:The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:34 am

rayiner wrote:When you look at jobs that really are materially different, firms like Munger or Williams and Connolly where you have a solid shot at partner, Columbia doesn't seem to help at all. HYS does, but Columbia doesn't.


rayiner wrote:options than Northwestern. Top 1/3 at Columbia might get CSM and top 1/3 at Northwestern might get Kirkland, but top 1/4 at Northwestern has a good shot at STB or DPW and top 20% at Northwestern can get CSM too. Unless you get WLRK, the other V20 are pretty fungible (with exceptions). And guess what? The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.
rayiner wrote:The only "elite" firm CLS would be really better for than NU is WLRK. Places like Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, Susman, etc, seem to not distinguish between the non-HYS T14. You need top 5% at any of them to have a good shot.

I would say Harvard is worth $100k more than Northwestern, but Harvard is in a totally different league from Columbia when it comes to the tippy-top of the profession (boutiques with low-leverage, federal clerkships, etc).


LOL I've been saying all of this for years and whenever I did it was called "Anti NYU trolling". Regardless of what people who have this odd since of obssessive level allegiance to "CCN" say, for the most part unless your goals are NYC biglaw (and in the case of UChicago Chicago biglaw) those schools aren't significantly different from the rest of the non HYS top 14--especially NYU. And for the most selective jobs there doesn't seem to be a difference at all.

Samara wrote:
rayiner wrote:The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.


Where's a link to that chart?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:36 am

Samara wrote:
rayiner wrote:The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.


I'm only gung ho about needing a job.

BruceWayne wrote:LOL I've been saying all of this for years and whenever I did it was called "Anti NYU trolling". Regardless of what people who have this odd since of obssessive level allegiance to "CCN" say, for the most part unless your goals are NYC biglaw (and in the case of UChicago Chicago biglaw) those schools aren't significantly different from the rest of the non HYS top 14--especially NYU. And for the most selective jobs there doesn't seem to be a difference at all.


To be clear, Rayiner just said he might pay an extra 100K for Columbia over Northwestern.

heeloftar
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Re: Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA

Postby heeloftar » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:36 am

Samara wrote:
rayiner wrote:The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.


anyone have the link to this chart handy? rayiner has a lot of posts, and I'm not all that great at sifting through this site




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