UChicago 30K vs. USC 105K Forum

[Law Sauce]

Assuming CoA at both is 70k, which is probably wrong, and that your full ride scholarship is for 50k a year. Also assuming you don't make any money for three years (probably false), you take out the full CoA amount of loans (also probably unnecessary), and you do not pay back any of your interest on the loans while in school (probably a bad choice), and also assuming a 3.5% tuition increase, then your total indebtedness at graduation at USC would be $71,375 and at Chicago it would be $184,408 (using the direct stafford and grad plus loan interest rates). That is a difference of $113,033.

Here is a helpful tool: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/finaid/Ge ... ts1213.htm. This does uses Direct Stafford loans, which I think are still available.

To see if that $113,033 is worth it you have to look at the difference in employment possibilities. The nlj numbers are out there, but they are always difficult get a good feel on. However, I would assume that Uchi has at least double people going into Biglaw and far more than double the amount going into the best firms in Cali, NY, DC, and anywhere else. Im also sure Uchi is far better in Clerkships and big gov which skews the numbers as well. Also, being from SoCal and from Uchi, you will be unique to SoCal firms. I think that the difference in school may be worth the $113,033 which could be paid back in three or so years of big law. However, if you can live very cheaply in SoCal, then the $113,033 may look more like $150,000, then I probably stay with USC.

Its tough and is really a life choice that no one on here can answer, but personally I would probably choose UChi unless you can live for free/cheaply in SoCal.

[murrrie]

If you want to work in LA, I'd probably go USC. Worst case scenario you are only around 60K in debt, and that is manageable even if you miss the biglaw boat (and based on USC placement numbers, you have a decent shot at biglaw 40 percent or so).

However, I would be scared that, according to this thread at least http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... a&start=25 over half the class at USC got undesirable employment. Again, worst case scenario you are only 60k in debt, so it's not terrible, but it is something to consider.

If you want to give yourself the best possible shot at the biglaw route, then Chicago wins, and with 60k its not a bad deal. Either way you're risking lower employment numbers or higher debt, so decide which one is more important. I don't think there is a wrong choice here. GL!

Thanks--I'm not sure whether to be happy that these schools are responding so readily or frightened about what that indicates about law school matriculation and the market.

In any case, that really is what it comes down to: higher employment risk vs. higher debt.

[Law Sauce]

Thanks--I'm not sure whether to be happy that these schools are responding so readily or frightened about what that indicates about law school matriculation and the market.

What? It only is good for law school matriculation and the market from your perspective. If it means anything, it means less applicants, or at least less top applicants, which means less competition for jobs, less over saturation etc.

[Borg]

Whoa,

Thanks for the feedback guys! I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

I'm definitely taking the advice and negotiating with USC before I make the leap... Seems like a small majority recommends Chicago but interestingly enough, it's not an overwhelming one.

Also, thoughts on JD/MBA? Why do some of you advise against it?

My vote goes to Chicago (but I go there so I may be bias). I know many people who are going to LA from Uchicago and all seemed to have a pretty easy time getting into one of the major firms there.

I would partially advise against a JD/MBA only if you want to be in a big firm for awhile. Although I do think it is valuable, it can make it more difficult to get into a firm. Some partners see the JD/MBA as a signal that you will not stick around and, therefore, why should they invest in you. Also, the summer positions are more difficult to get since you will have an added year. Plus, there is an extra year tuition, which may make it financially infeasible for some.

That being said, the JD/MBAs from Uchicago all got amazing Biglaw positions.

The bold part is complete and total bullshit. I am in a four year JD/MBA program at a top school, and I got a ton of summer offers very easily going into my second year. In fact, every JD/MBA I know at my school got awesome offers. Every single interview I had involved the interviewer saying something along the lines of "oh great you're a JD/MBA! It's really helpful to have a strong corporate background in transactional work." I don't know about USC's business school, but if you can go to Chicago Law and Booth, absolutely do it and never look back. This program was the best decision I ever made.

[JDizzle2015]

I would partially advise against a JD/MBA only if you want to be in a big firm for awhile. Although I do think it is valuable, it can make it more difficult to get into a firm. Some partners see the JD/MBA as a signal that you will not stick around and, therefore, why should they invest in you. Also, the summer positions are more difficult to get since you will have an added year. Plus, there is an extra year tuition, which may make it financially infeasible for some.

That being said, the JD/MBAs from Uchicago all got amazing Biglaw positions.

The bold part is complete and total bullshit. I am in a four year JD/MBA program at a top school, and I got a ton of summer offers very easily going into my second year. In fact, every JD/MBA I know at my school got awesome offers. Every single interview I had involved the interviewer saying something along the lines of "oh great you're a JD/MBA! It's really helpful to have a strong corporate background in transactional work." I don't know about USC's business school, but if you can go to Chicago Law and Booth, absolutely do it and never look back. This program was the best decision I ever made.

I was under the same impression as "0L Hoping for 1". From your experience, it seems to me that recruiters may tell 0Ls one thing and JD/MBAs another. Strange. Glad to hear that you didn't see any negative consequences though. I'm considering a JD/MBA as well and was initially put off about it by a biglaw recruiter.

[murrrie]

Assuming CoA at both is 70k, which is probably wrong, and that your full ride scholarship is for 50k a year. Also assuming you don't make any money for three years (probably false), you take out the full CoA amount of loans (also probably unnecessary), and you do not pay back any of your interest on the loans while in school (probably a bad choice), and also assuming a 3.5% tuition increase, then your total indebtedness at graduation at USC would be $71,375 and at Chicago it would be $184,408.

Here is a helpful tool: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/finaid/Ge ... ts1213.htm. This does uses Direct Stafford loans, which I think are still available.

As far as employment options, the nlj numbers are out there, but that is always difficult to quite right. However, I would assume that Uchi has at least double people going into Biglaw and far more than double the amount going into the best firms in Cali, NY, DC, and anywhere else. Im also sure Uchi is far better in Clerkships and big gov which skews the numbers as well. Also, being from SoCal and from Uchi, you will be unique to SoCal firms.

Its tough and is really a life choice that no one on here can answer, but personally I would probably choose UChi unless you can live for free/cheaply in SoCal.

Thanks for that link--very helpful in thinking about what life will look like after law school!

Those numbers match what I've approximated (with all of your assumptions) but looking at the interest makes me want to cry.

You're right about clerkships, biglaw, big gov, etc... But those seem so abstract and the debt seems so much more real.


In any case: I've asked for an extension from UChicago so that I can at least consider Berkeley simultaneously--if that happens at all.


Borg & JDizzle:
JD/MBA: Flip flopping about this as well but I have about 2 years to really think it through anyway and the additional debt concerns me. I've contacted a dean of financial aid about what kind of aid JD/MBAs get since well, they can't leverage much if they're already attending. I may be wrong about that... Considering that one can take business courses as electives without paying for the extra degree or spending the extra time, not sure if the cost is justified.

But Booth--! O.O

[Borg]

I would partially advise against a JD/MBA only if you want to be in a big firm for awhile. Although I do think it is valuable, it can make it more difficult to get into a firm. Some partners see the JD/MBA as a signal that you will not stick around and, therefore, why should they invest in you. Also, the summer positions are more difficult to get since you will have an added year. Plus, there is an extra year tuition, which may make it financially infeasible for some.

That being said, the JD/MBAs from Uchicago all got amazing Biglaw positions.

The bold part is complete and total bullshit. I am in a four year JD/MBA program at a top school, and I got a ton of summer offers very easily going into my second year. In fact, every JD/MBA I know at my school got awesome offers. Every single interview I had involved the interviewer saying something along the lines of "oh great you're a JD/MBA! It's really helpful to have a strong corporate background in transactional work." I don't know about USC's business school, but if you can go to Chicago Law and Booth, absolutely do it and never look back. This program was the best decision I ever made.

I was under the same impression as "0L Hoping for 1". From your experience, it seems to me that recruiters may tell 0Ls one thing and JD/MBAs another. Strange. Glad to hear that you didn't see any negative consequences though. I'm considering a JD/MBA as well and was initially put off about it by a biglaw recruiter.

I don't know why people think it's a problem, it's just this pernicious online rumor that will not die despite making zero logical sense. The "flight risk" argument is especially bad. These firms can take gigantic summer classes every year without swelling their ranks because the attrition rate is already so high. People leave after a few years because they can't deal with the hours, don't like the work, or just have something else in mind. A JD/MBA who leaves is just following the same attrition track as other associates.

Borg & JDizzle:
JD/MBA: Flip flopping about this as well but I have about 2 years to really think it through anyway and the additional debt concerns me. I've contacted a dean of financial aid about what kind of aid JD/MBAs get since well, they can't leverage much if they're already attending. I may be wrong about that... Considering that one can take business courses as electives without paying for the extra degree or spending the extra time, not sure if the cost is justified.

But Booth--! O.O

Understandable, this was a big issue for me when I was considering it too. However, I was swayed by a couple of things. The first is that it was really hard to get into the most wanted b school classes. When even students in that school can't get everything they want, law students trying to take them are at the very bottom of the barrel. You probably won't be able to take the good stuff coming from the law school. The second is that it's an extra year of tuition, but it adds enormous flexibility to your life. I can do all kinds of stuff outside of law now, and I feel like I have much more control over my own future. I have a massive network, new skills, and a general knowledge base that will allow me to figure out what I need to know in order to get where I want to go. It's not for everyone, but to me it was worth it.

[murrrie]

Understandable, this was a big issue for me when I was considering it too. However, I was swayed by a couple of things. The first is that it was really hard to get into the most wanted b school classes. When even students in that school can't get everything they want, law students trying to take them are at the very bottom of the barrel. You probably won't be able to take the good stuff coming from the law school. The second is that it's an extra year of tuition, but it adds enormous flexibility to your life. I can do all kinds of stuff outside of law now, and I feel like I have much more control over my own future. I have a massive network, new skills, and a general knowledge base that will allow me to figure out what I need to know in order to get where I want to go. It's not for everyone, but to me it was worth it.

Flexibility, control, skills, etc.--everything that attracted me to the joint degree in the first place. AHH! Also yeah, I don't buy much into the "firms are afraid you'll leave too quickly" but I am curious about what you do with your summers. Have you done a business internships or are you planning two summers at a law firm? The timing is just a little weird and the joint program seems to limit other things I can do like clinics, journal, study abroad etc.

Not sure about Booth but USC has a Business Law Certificate program that requires you to take certain biz courses and I'm wondering whether that helps with the competition. When you say "the good stuff"--what are you referring to exactly?

[Borg]

Understandable, this was a big issue for me when I was considering it too. However, I was swayed by a couple of things. The first is that it was really hard to get into the most wanted b school classes. When even students in that school can't get everything they want, law students trying to take them are at the very bottom of the barrel. You probably won't be able to take the good stuff coming from the law school. The second is that it's an extra year of tuition, but it adds enormous flexibility to your life. I can do all kinds of stuff outside of law now, and I feel like I have much more control over my own future. I have a massive network, new skills, and a general knowledge base that will allow me to figure out what I need to know in order to get where I want to go. It's not for everyone, but to me it was worth it.

Flexibility, control, skills, etc.--everything that attracted me to the joint degree in the first place. AHH! Also yeah, I don't buy much into the "firms are afraid you'll leave too quickly" but I am curious about what you do with your summers. Have you done a business internships or are you planning two summers at a law firm? The timing is just a little weird and the joint program seems to limit other things I can do like clinics, journal, study abroad etc.

Not sure about Booth but USC has a Business Law Certificate program that requires you to take certain biz courses and I'm wondering whether that helps with the competition. When you say "the good stuff"--what are you referring to exactly?

I did my first two summers in law, and this summer I will be in investment banking. If you're in a big city like Chicago you will also be able to find term time employment if you want it. I've done this and it has been a good experience. The good courses in my opinion have been advanced finance courses. There aren't any JDs in them, and I've learned a ton. Not sure if you get that through a certificate program or not as I'm unfamiliar with it.

[murrrie]

Understandable, this was a big issue for me when I was considering it too. However, I was swayed by a couple of things. The first is that it was really hard to get into the most wanted b school classes. When even students in that school can't get everything they want, law students trying to take them are at the very bottom of the barrel. You probably won't be able to take the good stuff coming from the law school. The second is that it's an extra year of tuition, but it adds enormous flexibility to your life. I can do all kinds of stuff outside of law now, and I feel like I have much more control over my own future. I have a massive network, new skills, and a general knowledge base that will allow me to figure out what I need to know in order to get where I want to go. It's not for everyone, but to me it was worth it.

Flexibility, control, skills, etc.--everything that attracted me to the joint degree in the first place. AHH! Also yeah, I don't buy much into the "firms are afraid you'll leave too quickly" but I am curious about what you do with your summers. Have you done a business internships or are you planning two summers at a law firm? The timing is just a little weird and the joint program seems to limit other things I can do like clinics, journal, study abroad etc.

Not sure about Booth but USC has a Business Law Certificate program that requires you to take certain biz courses and I'm wondering whether that helps with the competition. When you say "the good stuff"--what are you referring to exactly?

I did my first two summers in law, and this summer I will be in investment banking. If you're in a big city like Chicago you will also be able to find term time employment if you want it. I've done this and it has been a good experience. The good courses in my opinion have been advanced finance courses. There aren't any JDs in them, and I've learned a ton. Not sure if you get that through a certificate program or not as I'm unfamiliar with it.

Wow, that's awesome... Really sounds like the joint degree is worth it from your perspective.

Thanks for all of your input; I should probably ask admissions/the deans.

[sealrsqr]

I actually faced a similar choice and was talking with the Dean of USC at a mixer for admits. If it's the same dean, he's actually a U Chicago alum. All he talked about was Chicago. Other than the fact that he complained about the cold, he basically talked me in to going to Chicago. He seemed surprised I'd even consider USC over Chicago.

That said, I wanted to / will work in California, but not in the LA area, and my Chicago offer ended up improving so dramatically it became a no brainer for me.

[blurbz]

I know there are a handful of firms that pay a bonus if you have an MBA. If I remember correctly, mcguirewoods pays 10k.