Northwestern vs Colorado

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Kronk
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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 5:08 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude. I stand by my 70-80k for many of the previous reasons I've stated, including low COL, work, SO working, etc. Also-- you are trying to calculate Chicago to Denver, when the University of Colorado IS IN BOULDER. I live outside of Boulder for $600 a month. You are trying to do apples to apples but it isn't working well. CU and NU are totally different school with totally different cultures. Do NU students work during the semester, or would they rather spend their time gunning? At CU, we have a retarded B+ curve that sucks (almost) everyone into the middle. We got our jobs through networking and not OCI, so working during the year makes a ton of sense.


Boulder is 17% more expensive than Chicago according to the internets: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=5 ... 2=51714000.

It makes no sense to compare not working during the semester at NU versus working during the semester at CU. It's just a completely retarded way to compare the options.



I don't think Boulder is actually more expensive. Maybe if you want to live here. If you want that, it can be absurdly expensive. Student rental housing is manageble though it's like, $550-800 depending on how lavishly you want to live and if you have roommates. Is Chicago really that cheap on rent? I guess I just figurered it was like $800-1100 like most cities.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 5:10 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Kronk wrote:OP--You can PM me if you want. I was in a similar situation with slightly different schools. From Colorado, attended Berkeley for 1.5 years, got a BigLaw job back in Denver for 2L summer, but ended up transferring from Berkeley -> CU for my last 1.5 years.


That is weird how people transfer down sometimes, but I guess it can make a lot of sense-- especially when you have a job lined up and you want to save on tuition. I mentioned in another thread I met a 2L on Monday who transferred from G-Town.


Really didn't have to do with a prudent financial analysis. Any financial analysis of job prospects / future income / etc. would put Berkeley (or Northwestern) way on top. Saving tuition is really cool, but it's more just the lifestyle and ability to do the things I like to do on a regular basis so I don't have to walk at my law school graduate in a straight jacket with a temporary release grant from the local mental asylum.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 5:19 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude. I stand by my 70-80k for many of the previous reasons I've stated, including low COL, work, SO working, etc. Also-- you are trying to calculate Chicago to Denver, when the University of Colorado IS IN BOULDER. I live outside of Boulder for $600 a month. You are trying to do apples to apples but it isn't working well. CU and NU are totally different school with totally different cultures. Do NU students work during the semester, or would they rather spend their time gunning? At CU, we have a retarded B+ curve that sucks (almost) everyone into the middle. We got our jobs through networking and not OCI, so working during the year makes a ton of sense.


Boulder is 17% more expensive than Chicago according to the internets: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=5 ... 2=51714000.

It makes no sense to compare not working during the semester at NU versus working during the semester at CU. It's just a completely retarded way to compare the options.


Your source is total bullshit. Is it comparing the price of buying luxury homes? If you can say with a strait face that living in Chi-town is cheaper than living in Northern Colorado, I applaud your stupidity. Practical Q: how much are rents within a fifteen/twenty minute commute to campus at your school/NU? Also, I don't think comparing working during the semesters is completely retarded if there is a real difference. Do you attend NU? Do you work during the semesters? I attend CU, I do work during the semesters. I guess you don't believe that is worthy of consideration--fine, but it doesn't make it retarded, it just makes it a difference between state U's and T-14s that you've obviously never considered.

I'll concede all this for the point of the thread. Say CU is 42k tuition plus 20k a year living (higher than most students here) and OP gets no 2L/3L schollies, doesn't work semesters or summers, and breaks up with his lady. Then I'll spot you the 113k after 3.5% interest. Did you say tuition at Northwestern was 165k for three years? 165k plus 24k a year living (your estimate) at the same interest rate. Are we at >150k difference? If I come on this site as a CU student and try to tell OP that his 113k estimate is unrealistically high, I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that. No matter what the difference is at a practical level it is years and year and years of working. Unless he is big law or bust, I think that he should consider this.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby skers » Wed May 09, 2012 5:37 pm

McDuff. You're lucky as fuck if you're paying $600 a month in Boulder. I know a lot of people paying $850 for shitty one bedrooms. OP, you also have to factor whether you want a car or not. It's pretty near impossible to get around Boulder without one.

Also, you're not getting 160k in Denver unless you get the handful of spots at Gibson Dunn or Arnold Porter. There's something like 50 sa spots in all of Denver. Last year we heard something like top ten percent for Holland and Hart.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 5:43 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Your source is total bullshit. Is it comparing the price of buying luxury homes? If you can say with a strait face that living in Chi-town is cheaper than living in Northern Colorado, I applaud your stupidity.


I'm sorry you're bad with numbers and empirical data, but they are what they are. Other sources say the same thing:
http://www.city-data.com/city/Boulder-Colorado.html (CoL index = 117.5)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Chicago-Illinois.html (CoL index = 107.7)

Practical Q: how much are rents within a fifteen/twenty minute commute to campus at your school/NU?


You can get a 2BR for $1250/month (i.e. $625 each for a share) in Ukrainian Village, about 20-25 minutes west of the LS by bus (straight down Chicago Ave).

Also, I don't think comparing working during the semesters is completely retarded if there is a real difference. Do you attend NU? Do you work during the semesters? I attend CU, I do work during the semesters. I guess you don't believe that is worthy of consideration--fine, but it doesn't make it retarded, it just makes it a difference between state U's and T-14s that you've obviously never considered.


What's retarded is comparing working during the semester to not working during the semester. There is nothing in the ABA guidelines that says students at T-14's can't work during 2L and 3L. What's even more retarded is accounting for work during the semester in the CU case and leaving out SA money in the NU case!

If I come on this site as a CU student and try to tell OP that his 113k estimate is unrealistically high, I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that.


I have a problem with it because you compared CU + loads of ways to save money and not accounting for origination fees, interest, etc, to NU accounting for all the expenses in the official COA estimate.

The fact of the matter is that if you go by the official COA estimate at both you're looking at $113k versus about $260k (accounting for SA money). If you go by the savings you can eke out by living at less than the estimated COA, you're looking at maybe $100k versus $235k. Substantial difference, but a lot smaller than the "70-80k versus 270k" you originally stated by comparing two numbers calculated in completely different ways.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 5:43 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:McDuff. You're lucky as fuck if you're paying $600 a month in Boulder. I know a lot of people paying $850 for shitty one bedrooms. OP, you also have to factor whether you want a car or not. It's pretty near impossible to get around Boulder without one.


Whaaaaaaat? And I went through all over undergrad paying between $550-650 living with two roommates in extremely nice places in Goss-Grove. The people you know are getting had, bro.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby skers » Wed May 09, 2012 5:46 pm

Kronk wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:McDuff. You're lucky as fuck if you're paying $600 a month in Boulder. I know a lot of people paying $850 for shitty one bedrooms. OP, you also have to factor whether you want a car or not. It's pretty near impossible to get around Boulder without one.


Whaaaaaaat? And I went through all over undergrad paying between $550-650 living with two roommates in extremely nice places in Goss-Grove. The people you know are getting had, bro.


Well, I guess you can bike to play hacky sack.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 5:49 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
Kronk wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:McDuff. You're lucky as fuck if you're paying $600 a month in Boulder. I know a lot of people paying $850 for shitty one bedrooms. OP, you also have to factor whether you want a car or not. It's pretty near impossible to get around Boulder without one.


Whaaaaaaat? And I went through all over undergrad paying between $550-650 living with two roommates in extremely nice places in Goss-Grove. The people you know are getting had, bro.


Well, I guess you can bike to play hacky sack.


I just don't know what you're talking about, or if you even know what you're talking about. The HOP will get you anywhere on Pearl and down to 30th. There isn't too much past that. But sometimes I'll take the HOP down to 30th and then ride like two blocks over to the Spot. I don't know why you'd need to cross Foothills for anything as a college student unless you had friends over there. There is literally a bus going to any single town around Boulder that you'd want to get to. You can get to Denver via bus in 40 minutes. The Skip and Jump supplement everything.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm pretty convinced you've just never stepped foot on the RTD system or something. Having a car is nice but certainly not important at all in Boulder.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby skers » Wed May 09, 2012 5:54 pm

Different strokes man. Used the RTD and didn't find it as convenient as transit in bigger cities. Not having a car in northern Colorado pretty much invalidates the point of living in northern Colorado.

ETA: Also, some of us don't like sitting in balls freezing weather waiting forty minutes to for trains to arrive, especially drunk on Friday night.
Last edited by skers on Wed May 09, 2012 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:00 pm

Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 6:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


*gives advice on saving money*

*blows $100 at Vortex trying to get drunk*

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 6:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


tbf, there's no unsafe neighborhoods in Boulder. Literally I lived in a new-ish, carpeted, three-story townhome unit with 2 roommates and we each paid $570 a month. I guess I just figured that kind of ish isn't possible in Chicago, but maybe it's a lot cheaper there than I thought.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:07 pm

Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


tbf, there's no unsafe neighborhoods in Boulder. Literally I lived in a new-ish, carpeted, three-story townhome unit with 2 roommates and we each paid $570 a month. I guess I just figured that kind of ish isn't possible in Chicago, but maybe it's a lot cheaper there than I thought.


I'm surprised Boulder is that expensive to be honest.

NW is in the most expensive neighborhood in Chicago and I paid about 1100 for a 600 sqt studio.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 6:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


tbf, there's no unsafe neighborhoods in Boulder. Literally I lived in a new-ish, carpeted, three-story townhome unit with 2 roommates and we each paid $570 a month. I guess I just figured that kind of ish isn't possible in Chicago, but maybe it's a lot cheaper there than I thought.


I'm surprised Boulder is that expensive to be honest.

NW is in the most expensive neighborhood in Chicago and I paid about 1100 for a 600 sqt studio.


Eh, it makes sense to be that expensive. The property value is nuts here. There is a law that really limits city growth, so some of the luxury 2BR apartments "downtown" sell for like $1.2-1.8 million or more. Plus the are is just so beautiful and there is so much to do that there's a bit of a premium. Denver is significantly cheaper.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


*gives advice on saving money*

*blows $100 at Vortex trying to get drunk*


Worse is trying to get drunk, failing and still spending 150 bucks.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 6:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


*gives advice on saving money*

*blows $100 at Vortex trying to get drunk*


Worse is trying to get drunk, failing and still spending 150 bucks.


Significantly cheaper to get drunk in CO too. Which should probably be in the OP's calculation.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:16 pm

Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Looks like you can't get shit in Boulder under 700/mnth. That's about the low end in really safe neighborhoods of Chicago. But if you got a little bit shady you can get studios for 500 bucks in chicago.


*gives advice on saving money*

*blows $100 at Vortex trying to get drunk*


Worse is trying to get drunk, failing and still spending 150 bucks.


Significantly cheaper to get drunk in CO too. Which should probably be in the OP's calculation.


It really depends where you go in Chicago. Most bars are pretty damn good on pricing. But if you go to the wrong place you will get raped in the wallet. There are some places in Wrigleyville that still have dollar bottles on thursdays. My fucking college town didnt' even have that shit.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 6:18 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It really depends where you go in Chicago. Most bars are pretty damn good on pricing. But if you go to the wrong place you will get raped in the wallet. There are some places in Wrigleyville that still have dollar bottles on thursdays. My fucking college town didnt' even have that shit.


I was talking about altitude.

But the drinks here are dirt cheap too. I came back from living in San Francisco for a a year and ordered 3 rum and cokes and the total was like 7 bucks and I thought they'd only charged me for one.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 7:45 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
tedalbany wrote:You're still looking at about $100k cost of attendance for CU. Unless you're 100% deadset on working in Denver, I'd go to Northwestern.

This.


Not even if your set on Denver. CU has awful employment prospects, and NU is a GREAT school. They have national employment power. If you want to ski, go to CU. If you want a job, go to NU.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 7:52 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Your source is total bullshit. Is it comparing the price of buying luxury homes? If you can say with a strait face that living in Chi-town is cheaper than living in Northern Colorado, I applaud your stupidity.


I'm sorry you're bad with numbers and empirical data, but they are what they are. Other sources say the same thing:
http://www.city-data.com/city/Boulder-Colorado.html (CoL index = 117.5)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Chicago-Illinois.html (CoL index = 107.7)

Practical Q: how much are rents within a fifteen/twenty minute commute to campus at your school/NU?


You can get a 2BR for $1250/month (i.e. $625 each for a share) in Ukrainian Village, about 20-25 minutes west of the LS by bus (straight down Chicago Ave).

Also, I don't think comparing working during the semesters is completely retarded if there is a real difference. Do you attend NU? Do you work during the semesters? I attend CU, I do work during the semesters. I guess you don't believe that is worthy of consideration--fine, but it doesn't make it retarded, it just makes it a difference between state U's and T-14s that you've obviously never considered.


What's retarded is comparing working during the semester to not working during the semester. There is nothing in the ABA guidelines that says students at T-14's can't work during 2L and 3L. What's even more retarded is accounting for work during the semester in the CU case and leaving out SA money in the NU case!

If I come on this site as a CU student and try to tell OP that his 113k estimate is unrealistically high, I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that.


I have a problem with it because you compared CU + loads of ways to save money and not accounting for origination fees, interest, etc, to NU accounting for all the expenses in the official COA estimate.

The fact of the matter is that if you go by the official COA estimate at both you're looking at $113k versus about $260k (accounting for SA money). If you go by the savings you can eke out by living at less than the estimated COA, you're looking at maybe $100k versus $235k. Substantial difference, but a lot smaller than the "70-80k versus 270k" you originally stated by comparing two numbers calculated in completely different ways.


You make some decent overall points, but then you preach about fairness and include SA money for NU and no work money from CU. I don't know about NU, but with CU the cost of living calc from the University says 14k for the year, and I live on less than that and still go out and make all the happy-hours. In the summer, everyone works whether its big law small law or non law, so if you don't want to break even it is because you chose not to. So with no working, no significant other assistance, and no 2L/3l scholarships, OP is looking at like 84k+, not 113k.

What I'm saying--and you are not responding too-- is that OP has a significant other in Boulder that can keep costs down, and that Boulder/surrounding towns is/are way, way cheaper than Chicago. This isn't complicated. Obviously your cost of living sources don't account for what law students would pay, as you have law students at CU telling you about 570 or 600 dollar apartments. The bus system is free and you don't need a car (no offense to other poster). I don't have one, and I've never needed one. People take public transit here or bike and it's not weird at all, it's Boulder. You mentioned an apartment in "ukrainian village" for $625, BUT YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE A ROOMMATE AND IT WAS TWENTY FIVE MINUTES AWAY. Twenty five minutes away from CU you can live in Longmont and pay $850 for a two bedroom, and ride the bus in everyday (for free with your student id). You can live right across the street from the law school and pay $1250 for a two bedroom. You can live five minutes walk from the law school and pay less. I know lots of people who live in superior or broomfield and they pay $500-600 for a single or $450ish with a roommate. Point is, it is cheaper regardless of what your "empirical data" tells you.

Also your point about the ABA guidelines... really? Just really? Do NU students work during the semester, yes or no? Here, many do because it is a great way to keep costs down AND network. ABA guidelines do not need to be brought into this discussion. Bottom line is CU would save this cat probably like $180,000, whether or not you agree/know anything about this school or region of the country.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 7:57 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
tedalbany wrote:You're still looking at about $100k cost of attendance for CU. Unless you're 100% deadset on working in Denver, I'd go to Northwestern.

This.


Not even if your set on Denver. CU has awful employment prospects, and NU is a GREAT school. They have national employment power. If you want to ski, go to CU. If you want a job, go to NU.


Do you know what you're talking about? I mean, I more or less agree with you (just personally chose the former + climbing, biking, running, dating women, etc.), but I'm just not convinced you actually know what you're talking about.

I feel like Berkeley helped me get jobs in Colorado, but only because I had lived in Colorado 22 years previously and attended CU undergrad and had connections everywhere. Without that, there's not a chance a single 160k firm or even 110k firm would've hired me here. So if the OP is in that situation, Northwestern would be advantageous. If not, there's almost no chance OP gets a job in Denver at a firm without attending CU. You can go to Harvard and you'll probably get shut out of Denver ITE if you don't have EXTREMELY strong Colorado ties (we have a Denver CB / offer thread somewhere on here that you can check out if you don't believe me).

And if you break out of the BigLaw or bust mentality, CU has solid employment prospects in the region for local government, policy positions, PD/DA offices, public interest organizations, etc. It all just depends on what your career goals are and what your life has been like in the past. Colorado is a very exclusionary state. You have to prove your ties to get work here from out of state unless you have insane credentials, so keep that in mind. Networking can't really be understated.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 7:58 pm

Had to fix this for you.

willwilliams1334 wrote:Not even if your set on Denver. CU has awful employment prospects (for big law), and NU is a GREAT school (just like CU, but their graduates are way, way more sought after in large law firms who serve corporate clients). They have national employment power (at large law firms that serve corporate clients).


willwilliams1334 wrote: If you want to ski, go to CU. If you want a job, go to NU.


This is still pretty much accurate. A "work to live" or "live to work" decision if you ask me. Different schools that are right for different people.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 8:00 pm

In short, for me:

I regret going to Berkeley. I should've taken the scholarship at CU. But I have a lot of connections here and would have had no fear about getting a job in the Denver / Boulder area afterwards because of that. I had at least a couple fallback plans in CO if I didn't get the jobs I wanted. Berkeley was a shitton of money that ended up being a poor investment since I would've ended up with the same job anyhow, and I enjoy outdoor activities too much to be stuck in the Berkeley / Oakland area. Everything is going to be situational, but that's my advice.

If you think you'd enjoy living in Chicago for three years (I didn't enjoy living in SF), you don't necessarily care about giving up the lifestyle you have in Colorado, and you want to keep your options open about where you will work after, you should definitely take the opportunity and get your education at Northwestern.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Had to fix this for you.

willwilliams1334 wrote:Not even if your set on Denver. CU has awful employment prospects (for big law), and NU is a GREAT school (just like CU, but their graduates are way, way more sought after in large law firms who serve corporate clients). They have national employment power (at large law firms that serve corporate clients).


willwilliams1334 wrote: If you want to ski, go to CU. If you want a job, go to NU.


This is still pretty much accurate. A "work to live" or "live to work" decision if you ask me. Different schools that are right for different people.
Kronk wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
tedalbany wrote:You're still looking at about $100k cost of attendance for CU. Unless you're 100% deadset on working in Denver, I'd go to Northwestern.

This.


Not even if your set on Denver. CU has awful employment prospects, and NU is a GREAT school. They have national employment power. If you want to ski, go to CU. If you want a job, go to NU.


Do you know what you're talking about? I mean, I more or less agree with you (just personally chose the former + climbing, biking, running, dating women, etc.), but I'm just not convinced you actually know what you're talking about.

I feel like Berkeley helped me get jobs in Colorado, but only because I had lived in Colorado 22 years previously and attended CU undergrad and had connections everywhere. Without that, there's not a chance a single 160k firm or even 110k firm would've hired me here. So if the OP is in that situation, Northwestern would be advantageous. If not, there's almost no chance OP gets a job in Denver at a firm without attending CU. You can go to Harvard and you'll probably get shut out of Denver ITE if you don't have EXTREMELY strong Colorado ties (we have a Denver CB / offer thread somewhere on here that you can check out if you don't believe me).

And if you break out of the BigLaw or bust mentality, CU has solid employment prospects in the region for local government, policy positions, PD/DA offices, public interest organizations, etc. It all just depends on what your career goals are and what your life has been like in the past. Colorado is a very exclusionary state. You have to prove your ties to get work here from out of state unless you have insane credentials, so keep that in mind. Networking can't really be understated.


Decent points here. If you want to Biglaw, there are few schools better than NU.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Icculus » Wed May 09, 2012 10:44 pm

splitmuch wrote:
Icculus wrote:Well, I am at NU right now paying sticker, and what I can tell you is that while the looming debt is a bit terrifying, the job prospects coming out of NU are a lot better, and honestly 100K making 50K a year is no better than 200K making 160K a year, yes both are risks, but I would probably take the risk at the place that gave me the best job prospects. You also need to figure out the odds of keeping that scholarship, I have no idea what CU curves to, but if there is a good chance you lose the scholarship then NU seems a better investment. As for the idiot comment about you being 30, I'll be 34 when I graduate and I can tell you I don't see it impacting my ability to work long hours and be successful. Dumb ass twenty somethings shouldn't be so sure that 30=death. Idiot. There are far more realistic concerns than you may be 30.



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