Northwestern vs Colorado

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rayiner
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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 1:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
rayiner wrote:The calculator has me at $248k, and I'm around $238k, having taken full loans each semester.


That seems about right since it is set for 6 months from graduation.

ETA: Scooped by DF.


Those bastards!

09042014
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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Tyranny of the 8% brothers.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby awhite1205 » Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 pm

All input is appreciated.

Other considerations: avid skier (with real importance placed upon the stress-relief value of being able to escape to the mountains, even if only once a week), sunlight is fairly crucial to my general disposition and mental state (Boulder=300+ days, Chicago= 180ish), my girlfriend is planning on moving to Boulder as well (it isn't as though I know that things will ultimately work out (can we ever know?) but I also definitely don't know that isn't a life-long situation as well), and I have already signed a lease for an apartment in Boulder (literally 2 days before NW acceptance letter). I figured I would present the school v. school scenario before introducing outside factors.

Also, though I am not absolutely positive about where I want to settle upon graduation, Denver is the leading candidate. Additionally, CU offers the possibility of garnering more scholarship money for 2L and 3L years through an end-of-the-year application process (they extend about 100 offers to continuing students each year), and this is not a possibility at NW.

splitmuch
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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby splitmuch » Wed May 09, 2012 2:12 pm

Icculus wrote:Well, I am at NU right now paying sticker, and what I can tell you is that while the looming debt is a bit terrifying, the job prospects coming out of NU are a lot better, and honestly 100K making 50K a year is no better than 200K making 160K a year, yes both are risks, but I would probably take the risk at the place that gave me the best job prospects. You also need to figure out the odds of keeping that scholarship, I have no idea what CU curves to, but if there is a good chance you lose the scholarship then NU seems a better investment. As for the idiot comment about you being 30, I'll be 34 when I graduate and I can tell you I don't see it impacting my ability to work long hours and be successful. Dumb ass twenty somethings shouldn't be so sure that 30=death. Idiot. There are far more realistic concerns than you may be 30.



Writing comp is making somebody grumpy

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 2:20 pm

splitmuch wrote:
Icculus wrote:Well, I am at NU right now paying sticker, and what I can tell you is that while the looming debt is a bit terrifying, the job prospects coming out of NU are a lot better, and honestly 100K making 50K a year is no better than 200K making 160K a year, yes both are risks, but I would probably take the risk at the place that gave me the best job prospects. You also need to figure out the odds of keeping that scholarship, I have no idea what CU curves to, but if there is a good chance you lose the scholarship then NU seems a better investment. As for the idiot comment about you being 30, I'll be 34 when I graduate and I can tell you I don't see it impacting my ability to work long hours and be successful. Dumb ass twenty somethings shouldn't be so sure that 30=death. Idiot. There are far more realistic concerns than you may be 30.



Writing comp is making somebody grumpy


Writing comp is so bullshit. They should just make LR grade on only, then let everyone else just sign up for a journal. Even if don't do more than half the comp. you get your 3rd or 4th choice.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby bk1 » Wed May 09, 2012 2:22 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Writing comp is so bullshit. They should just make LR grade on only, then let everyone else just sign up for a journal. Even if don't do more than half the comp. you get your 3rd or 4th choice.


I so wish.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 2:29 pm

bk1 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Writing comp is so bullshit. They should just make LR grade on only, then let everyone else just sign up for a journal. Even if don't do more than half the comp. you get your 3rd or 4th choice.


I so wish.


Just do a shitty job bro. If you have good grades, nobody really cares about law review. You probably aren't going to gun your way to write on. And you'll definitely get your second choice (unless it's JCLC but that journal sucks).

If my journal makes me read write on entries I'm giving everyone a 3 or a 4 and I will decide randomly anyway.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 2:40 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
flem wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
110K CO vs 160 NYC/DC with no debt ---> CO big winner

But that debt costs the same in both cities. 110K --> 76K after taxes. Assuming you try to pay it all off before you get up and outted at the firm. You are left living on 26K per year in Denver. That's tough. If you push it to 10 year repayment that's still only 46K. 46K should be good to live nicely on. But you'd still have a fuck ton of debt by the time you get pushed out of big law.

I can see NYC to 180K just based on the extreme debt people are ending up with.


Good lord.


26K after tax is more than it sounds. It's like a 35 grand salary. 46K is like living on a 62K salary.

NYC is 100K after tax. That knocks it down to 50K after tax for a 5 year repayment, or about a 75K salary. 10 year repayment: 70K or a 117K salary.

So
5 year
  • NYC effective salary = 75K
  • CO Effective Salary =35k
10 year
  • NYC effective =117K
  • CO effective = 46k


Except your are still ignoring that market in Denver is 160k, same as NYC, and that the debt total of 80-100k out of CU goes away much faster than the 240-284k from NU.

Also, cost of living AND taxes are cheaper in Colorado. I'm not sure if you looked up the city/state/federal taxes here, but you save a boatload over NYC.

From a financial standpoint, I'd much rather make 110k in Colorado (which, again, is not market rate) and owe 80k than make 160k in NYC and owe 240k.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 2:53 pm

Market is not $160k in CO just because a couple of out of town firms pay that. E.g. Market in DE is 145k even though Skadden pays 160.

Also, the decision here is $50k with at least $125k of debt (in-state, not counting summers) versus $150k with $275k of debt.

Let's put it another way. If you do as well at NU as you need to do at CU to get $160k, you are definitely in the running for above-market firms like Boies, etc. If you do as well at NU as you need to at CU to get $110k, almost every non-WLRK (or W&C, etc) level firm is open to you.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 3:04 pm

rayiner wrote:Market is not $160k in CO just because a couple of out of town firms pay that. E.g. Market in DE is 145k even though Skadden pays 160.

Also, the decision here is $50k with at least $125k of debt (in-state, not counting summers) versus $150k with $275k of debt.

Let's put it another way. If you do as well at NU as you need to do at CU to get $160k, you are definitely in the running for above-market firms like Boies, etc. If you do as well at NU as you need to at CU to get $110k, almost every non-WLRK (or W&C, etc) level firm is open to you.


CU is not 125 debt-- dude has a bunch of scholarships. 0, 21, 21 is what he would be paying in tuition. 42k plus cost of living-- I live in CO, living is not 83k over three years. I, like OP, had a significant other who worked and so I saved a ton, but even without that I would never pay more than 18k a year. COL calculator from CU is like 14/15k. I'd guess his debt would be around 70-80k and even less if the SO works. Like me, he could also work during the semesters (not sure how many people at NU would do this considering they are all going or believe they are going to big law). Many of us make 15-20 bucks an hour working part-time for local shops during the school year, and if he did that he could shave his debt further.

From NU, the debt will be from around 240-275/284k, depending on which estimate you use. That is like a 200k difference. I know that CU doesn't provide anywhere close to the placement in big law, but with only 70k debt one isn't forced to do big law. He said he wants big law which screams NU, but I'm wondering if he might change his mind when he a) really investigates what big law is like and how that might effect him getting out of debt and b) realizes how nice it would be to make 60k to start in CO and ski on the weekends.

Edit: "big-law" in Denver is 160k. I know there are firms around town that pay less, but I think all of the 17th street firms pay 160k. However, many would argue that he would have a better shot at the 17th street firms from NU than CU, considering he is from Colorado... still it would be very risky to go to NU and plan on coming back to CO.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 3:16 pm

Yes, if you calculate NU taking max loans, ignoring SA money, counting interest, and calculate CU with no interest, no tuition increases, less than full COA, etc, you get a bigger difference. :roll:

You can shave $30k off the COA at NU if you live like my friend and get a $800/mo share in a 2BR in Lincoln Park. You can easily work during the semester if you want (you're in Chicago after all). The full COA is for people like me who live in a $1500/mo high-rise apartment downtown and blow $1000/mo on eating/drinking out.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:19 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:26K after tax is more than it sounds. It's like a 35 grand salary. 46K is like living on a 62K salary.

NYC is 100K after tax. That knocks it down to 50K after tax for a 5 year repayment, or about a 75K salary. 10 year repayment: 70K or a 117K salary.

So
5 year
  • NYC effective salary = 75K
  • CO Effective Salary =35k
10 year
  • NYC effective =117K
  • CO effective = 46k


Except your are still ignoring that market in Denver is 160k, same as NYC, and that the debt total of 80-100k out of CU goes away much faster than the 240-284k from NU.

Also, cost of living AND taxes are cheaper in Colorado. I'm not sure if you looked up the city/state/federal taxes here, but you save a boatload over NYC.

From a financial standpoint, I'd much rather make 110k in Colorado (which, again, is not market rate) and owe 80k than make 160k in NYC and owe 240k.


1) Denver market is not 160K. A few firms pay 160K but most seem to be 110-120K. Including a few firms who do pay 160K in other markets. So I'm guessing 110-120K is market and the few are exceptions. I wouldn't go to NU based on assuming you are going to get one of the 2 Arnold Porter spots in Denver.

2) I'm not comparing CU vs. NU. I'm showing how NU debt makes it a poor choice at sticker for Denver firms. In both cases I assume 250K debt from NU.

I'd much rather have 80K from CU than 250K at NU. No fucking question. The problem is CU folks have a hard time getting these jobs.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 3:44 pm

rayiner wrote:Yes, if you calculate NU taking max loans, ignoring SA money, counting interest, and calculate CU with no interest, no tuition increases, less than full COA, etc, you get a bigger difference. :roll:

You can shave $30k off the COA at NU if you live like my friend and get a $800/mo share in a 2BR in Lincoln Park. You can easily work during the semester if you want (you're in Chicago after all). The full COA is for people like me who live in a $1500/mo high-rise apartment downtown and blow $1000/mo on eating/drinking out.


Tuition is locked in so cost of tuition increases don't effect CU students. Also I did factor in interest... The problem dude is that NU is like what 150k in tuition alone and CU is only 42. That, plus the fact it cheaper to live in CO than Chicago and the magical ways of compound interest make this a huge difference. All I'm saying.

Edit: I was wrong about Denver's market rate. I see you are right fox, most firms are like 115k. Dunno where I got that info but thank you for correcting me.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:44 pm

But it must be nice to get that 160K in Denver.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 3:52 pm

Desert Fox wrote:But it must be nice to get that 160K in Denver.


Live like a boss. Be mean to people.

I'd rather get the 115k from Reily Pozner in downtown Boulder.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 2014 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:10 pm

From the first google COL compare site I found, NYC is roughly 1.5x Denver, so the numbers DF gave for Denver should be effectively increased by 50% for a real comparison. NYC still wins out handily though from a pure financial standpoint.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:Yes, if you calculate NU taking max loans, ignoring SA money, counting interest, and calculate CU with no interest, no tuition increases, less than full COA, etc, you get a bigger difference. :roll:

You can shave $30k off the COA at NU if you live like my friend and get a $800/mo share in a 2BR in Lincoln Park. You can easily work during the semester if you want (you're in Chicago after all). The full COA is for people like me who live in a $1500/mo high-rise apartment downtown and blow $1000/mo on eating/drinking out.


Tuition is locked in so cost of tuition increases don't effect CU students. Also I did factor in interest... The problem dude is that NU is like what 150k in tuition alone and CU is only 42. That, plus the fact it cheaper to live in CO than Chicago and the magical ways of compound interest make this a huge difference. All I'm saying.


You said:

CU is not 125 debt-- dude has a bunch of scholarships. 0, 21, 21 is what he would be paying in tuition. 42k plus cost of living-- I live in CO, living is not 83k over three years. I, like OP, had a significant other who worked and so I saved a ton, but even without that I would never pay more than 18k a year. COL calculator from CU is like 14/15k. I'd guess his debt would be around 70-80k and even less if the SO works.


You clearly did not factor in interest. Tuition alone being $42k and your lowest estimate of COL being $14k*3 gives you $84k, which is not "70-80k" and doesn't include interest, origination fees, etc.

C'mon you need to compare like with like here. You left out all of the student fees, health insurance, interest, etc, from the CU calculation. And Denver isn't really cheaper than Chicago: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=5 ... 2=50820000. Only a 5% difference. NU budgets $24k/year for COL, or about $23k in Denver. If you're living on $14k in Denver, you should budget $15k in Chicago.

If you do the calculation the way you're doing it, ignoring interest and everything else, you get:

CU: $42k tuition + $42k COL = $84k.
NU: $165k tuition + $45k COL = $210k.

Of course that's a wild understatement. If you plug everything into the GULC finaid calculator: --LinkRemoved--

Assuming $49,500 cost of attendance growing at 1% (just for CoL, no tuition increases), that puts sticker at $173k. He's getting $50k off that, and saving maybe $10k in interest, leaving you at $113k.

Then you have to factor in that you probably will get an SA from NU and not get an SA from CU. That's $20k even at a CO firm that pays only $120k/year (the tax situation in your 2L summer is extremely favorable).
Last edited by rayiner on Wed May 09, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 4:32 pm

2014 wrote:From the first google COL compare site I found, NYC is roughly 1.5x Denver, so the numbers DF gave for Denver should be effectively increased by 50% for a real comparison. NYC still wins out handily though from a pure financial standpoint.


Your loans aren't COL-adjusted.

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Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby 2014 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:36 pm

Might be relevant to add on to Rayiner's post that Boulder is actually 17% more expensive than NU according to that same site, so unless OP wants to live in Denver and commute 45 minutes each way, it might actually save COL money going to NU, further bridging the gap.

rayiner wrote:
2014 wrote:From the first google COL compare site I found, NYC is roughly 1.5x Denver, so the numbers DF gave for Denver should be effectively increased by 50% for a real comparison. NYC still wins out handily though from a pure financial standpoint.


Your loans aren't COL-adjusted.

Yeah, I was just commenting because DF's post didn't account for COL differences. It still favored NY regardless, just by less of a margin than looking at non-adjusted numbers.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 4:43 pm

OP--You can PM me if you want. I was in a similar situation with slightly different schools. From Colorado, attended Berkeley for 1.5 years, got a BigLaw job back in Denver for 2L summer, but ended up transferring from Berkeley -> CU for my last 1.5 years.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 4:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:Yes, if you calculate NU taking max loans, ignoring SA money, counting interest, and calculate CU with no interest, no tuition increases, less than full COA, etc, you get a bigger difference. :roll:

You can shave $30k off the COA at NU if you live like my friend and get a $800/mo share in a 2BR in Lincoln Park. You can easily work during the semester if you want (you're in Chicago after all). The full COA is for people like me who live in a $1500/mo high-rise apartment downtown and blow $1000/mo on eating/drinking out.


Tuition is locked in so cost of tuition increases don't effect CU students. Also I did factor in interest... The problem dude is that NU is like what 150k in tuition alone and CU is only 42. That, plus the fact it cheaper to live in CO than Chicago and the magical ways of compound interest make this a huge difference. All I'm saying.


You said:

CU is not 125 debt-- dude has a bunch of scholarships. 0, 21, 21 is what he would be paying in tuition. 42k plus cost of living-- I live in CO, living is not 83k over three years. I, like OP, had a significant other who worked and so I saved a ton, but even without that I would never pay more than 18k a year. COL calculator from CU is like 14/15k. I'd guess his debt would be around 70-80k and even less if the SO works.


You clearly did not factor in interest. Tuition alone being $42k and your lowest estimate of COL being $14k*3 gives you $84k, which is not "70-80k" and doesn't include interest, origination fees, etc.

C'mon you need to compare like with like here. You left out all of the student fees, health insurance, interest, etc, from the CU calculation. And Denver isn't really cheaper than Chicago: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=5 ... 2=50820000. Only a 5% difference. NU budgets $24k/year for COL, or about $23k in Denver. If you're living on $14k in Denver, you should budget $15k in Chicago.

If you do the calculation the way you're doing it, ignoring interest and everything else, you get:

CU: $42k tuition + $42k COL = $84k.
NU: $165k tuition + $45k COL = $210k.

Of course that's a wild understatement. If you plug everything into the GULC finaid calculator: --LinkRemoved--

Assuming $49,500 cost of attendance growing at 1% (just for CoL, no tuition increases), that puts sticker at $173k. He's getting $50k off that, and saving maybe $10k in interest, leaving you at $113k.

Then you have to factor in that you probably will get an SA from NU and not get an SA from CU. That's $20k even at a CO firm that pays only $120k/year (the tax situation in your 2L summer is extremely favorable).


Dude. I stand by my 70-80k for many of the previous reasons I've stated, including low COL, work, SO working, etc. Also-- you are trying to calculate Chicago to Denver, when the University of Colorado IS IN BOULDER. I live outside of Boulder for $600 a month. You are trying to do apples to apples but it isn't working well. CU and NU are totally different school with totally different cultures. Do NU students work during the semester, or would they rather spend their time gunning? At CU, we have a retarded B+ curve that sucks (almost) everyone into the middle. We got our jobs through networking and not OCI, so working during the year makes a ton of sense.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Kronk » Wed May 09, 2012 4:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:But it must be nice to get that 160K in Denver.


It's actually worse. Not financially, obviously, but at least in Chicago / NYC there isn't shit to do outside so spending 70+ hours a week doesn't seem idiotic.

And I've heard (and I have been to both places a bit) that New York is closer to 2x the COL of Denver, not 1.5. Could be wrong though.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 4:56 pm

Kronk wrote:OP--You can PM me if you want. I was in a similar situation with slightly different schools. From Colorado, attended Berkeley for 1.5 years, got a BigLaw job back in Denver for 2L summer, but ended up transferring from Berkeley -> CU for my last 1.5 years.


That is weird how people transfer down sometimes, but I guess it can make a lot of sense-- especially when you have a job lined up and you want to save on tuition. I mentioned in another thread I met a 2L on Monday who transferred from G-Town.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:But it must be nice to get that 160K in Denver.


It's actually worse. Not financially, obviously, but at least in Chicago / NYC there isn't shit to do outside so spending 70+ hours a week doesn't seem idiotic.

And I've heard (and I have been to both places a bit) that New York is closer to 2x the COL of Denver, not 1.5. Could be wrong though.


No you are right. The COL calculators are way off for cities than have manageable suburbs. Living in Denver can be cheap.

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Re: Northwestern vs Colorado

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude. I stand by my 70-80k for many of the previous reasons I've stated, including low COL, work, SO working, etc. Also-- you are trying to calculate Chicago to Denver, when the University of Colorado IS IN BOULDER. I live outside of Boulder for $600 a month. You are trying to do apples to apples but it isn't working well. CU and NU are totally different school with totally different cultures. Do NU students work during the semester, or would they rather spend their time gunning? At CU, we have a retarded B+ curve that sucks (almost) everyone into the middle. We got our jobs through networking and not OCI, so working during the year makes a ton of sense.


Boulder is 17% more expensive than Chicago according to the internets: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=5 ... 2=51714000.

It makes no sense to compare not working during the semester at NU versus working during the semester at CU. It's just a completely retarded way to compare the options.




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