Top Law Schools

Samara wrote:The 9:30 Club and 80s punk bands are about the only good cultural things about DC. (Okay, and the sightseeing stuff I guess, but how many times can you go to the museums?)

willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP

KevinP wrote:

bk187 wrote:

rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.

I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.html

Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:

"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf

rayiner wrote:

KevinP wrote:

bk187 wrote:

rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.

I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.html

Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:

"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf

Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]

[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.

rayiner wrote: Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]

[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.

Veyron wrote:
IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

willwilliams1334 wrote:Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR or on TLS. School has great placement, perhaps the best location, and a fantastic alumni network that squarely encompasses the corporate world (Wharton). IMO, CCNP

thelawyler wrote:The power of Penn is mightier than the sword.

AntipodeanPhil wrote:

willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP

Nah - CCP, NMV. It's only a matter of time.

I can't believe people are trashing Chicago's location. It's in an attractive suburb with relatively cheap housing, about 15 minutes from one of the world's greatest downtowns.

Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.

willwilliams1334 wrote:

Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.

Another school that I personally feel may be on the rise.

rayiner wrote:

Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.

willwilliams1334 wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.

Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.

rayiner wrote:

willwilliams1334 wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.

Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.

No school "self selects" out of DC. DC rejects you, not the other way around.

Chicago's NYC placement is great. A lot of their class chooses to stay in Chicago, but plenty go to V10 in NYC. This data is old, but see: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html.

See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.

willwilliams1334 wrote:See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

Veyron wrote:

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.

Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.

Veyron wrote:

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.

Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0

rayiner wrote:

Veyron wrote:

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.

Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.

2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:

Code: Select all

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0

Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?

Yes, individual people self-select out of DC, but there is no reason to believe that as a school Penn "self selects" out of DC any more than Chicago or NYU.

Veyron wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Veyron wrote:

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.

Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.

2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:

Code: Select all

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0

Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?

Right, but if you look it the trend, its clear that the numbers have been moving in Penn's favor. While it would be nice to do recruiting in 2006, such an option is, unfortunately, not available to today's applicants and students.