Power of Penn

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jkpolk
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby jkpolk » Tue May 08, 2012 7:42 pm

Samara wrote:The 9:30 Club and 80s punk bands are about the only good cultural things about DC. (Okay, and the sightseeing stuff I guess, but how many times can you go to the museums?)


What about the Kennedy center and Folger Shakespeare Theater/Library!?

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Tue May 08, 2012 7:50 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP

Nah - CCP, NMV. It's only a matter of time.

I can't believe people are trashing Chicago's location. It's in an attractive suburb with relatively cheap housing, about 15 minutes from one of the world's greatest downtowns.

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Detrox
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Detrox » Tue May 08, 2012 7:58 pm

ITT: Penn trolls, Chicago trolls, Berkeley Trolls oh my!

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 7:59 pm

KevinP wrote:
bk1 wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.


I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.html

Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:

"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf


Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]

[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Tom Joad » Tue May 08, 2012 8:57 pm

It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.

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thelawyler
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby thelawyler » Tue May 08, 2012 10:14 pm

The power of Penn is mightier than the sword.

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Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Veyron » Tue May 08, 2012 11:27 pm

rayiner wrote:
KevinP wrote:
bk1 wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.


I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.html

Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:

"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf


Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]

[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.


IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.

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sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:32 pm

No, OP was actually some rambling incoherent nonsense about Wharton rubbing off on PennLaw so tls doesn't love Penn enough.

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KevinP
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby KevinP » Tue May 08, 2012 11:46 pm

rayiner wrote:Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]

[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.

Very good points. This would imply GPAs would overstate rankings at the top whereas the LSAT would overstate rankings at the lower tiers.

Veyron wrote:
IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.


Rayiner's argument isn't a strawman because the OP mentions USNWR. The methodology of U.S. News is therefore relevant. See the bolded.

willwilliams1334 wrote:Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR or on TLS. School has great placement, perhaps the best location, and a fantastic alumni network that squarely encompasses the corporate world (Wharton). IMO, CCNP

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KevinP
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby KevinP » Tue May 08, 2012 11:49 pm

thelawyler wrote:The power of Penn is mightier than the sword.

Also, under-appreciated. Seriously loled.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:01 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP

Nah - CCP, NMV. It's only a matter of time.

I can't believe people are trashing Chicago's location. It's in an attractive suburb with relatively cheap housing, about 15 minutes from one of the world's greatest downtowns.


Yeah, I definitely feel the ranking change is going to be at the expense of NYU. Just can't hold up against a giant like Penn. Also, I realize my statement with regard to including USNWR's application of its own formula was a little silly. Here on TLS though, I stand my ground. Penn is definitely on the rise.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 12:05 am

Veyron wrote:IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.


OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:06 am

Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.


Another school that I personally feel may be on the rise.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 12:06 am

willwilliams1334 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.


Another school that I personally feel may be on the rise.


Duke is on a decades-long decline, what are you talking about.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:08 am

rayiner wrote:
Veyron wrote:IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.


OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.


Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 12:14 am

willwilliams1334 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Veyron wrote:IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.


OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.


Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.


No school "self selects" out of DC. DC rejects you, not the other way around.

Chicago's NYC placement is great. A lot of their class chooses to stay in Chicago, but plenty go to V10 in NYC. This data is old, but see: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html.

See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:22 am

rayiner wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Veyron wrote:IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.


OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.

You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.

Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.


Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.


No school "self selects" out of DC. DC rejects you, not the other way around.

Chicago's NYC placement is great. A lot of their class chooses to stay in Chicago, but plenty go to V10 in NYC. This data is old, but see: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html.

See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

People definitely do self select out of DC, even if it means they just don't apply. Big time M@A, corporate all happens in NYC. There's no reason for alot of people to go to DC. Also I found that Columbia ahead of Harvard in those placements smelled fishy.

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Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Veyron » Wed May 09, 2012 12:23 am

rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.


Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.

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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 12:34 am

willwilliams1334 wrote:See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

People definitely do self select out of DC, even if it means they just don't apply. Big time M@A, corporate all happens in NYC. There's no reason for alot of people to go to DC. Also I found that Columbia ahead of Harvard in those placements smelled fishy.[/quote]

Yes, individual people self-select out of DC, but there is no reason to believe that as a school Penn "self selects" out of DC any more than Chicago or NYU.

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skers
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby skers » Wed May 09, 2012 12:36 am

Veyron wrote:
rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.


Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.


So, one year of NLJ250> all other years of NLJ250?

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 12:50 am

Veyron wrote:
rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.


Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.


2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:

Code: Select all

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0


Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?

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Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Veyron » Wed May 09, 2012 1:12 am

rayiner wrote:
Veyron wrote:
rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.


Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.


2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:

Code: Select all

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0


Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?


Right, but if you look it the trend, its clear that the numbers have been moving in Penn's favor. While it would be nice to do recruiting in 2006, such an option is, unfortunately, not available to today's applicants and students.

Yes, individual people self-select out of DC, but there is no reason to believe that as a school Penn "self selects" out of DC any more than Chicago or NYU.


I could see the argument for people self-selecting out of DC from NYU since so many people go there precisely because they love NY and want to be there always. Penn and Chicago not so much (although we also have a fair contingent of New Yorkers who wanted to stay close to home).

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Wed May 09, 2012 1:27 am

Veyron wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Veyron wrote:
rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.


Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.

P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.


2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:

Code: Select all

CLS:  1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi:  3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU:  4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU:   2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0


Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?


Right, but if you look it the trend, its clear that the numbers have been moving in Penn's favor. While it would be nice to do recruiting in 2006, such an option is, unfortunately, not available to today's applicants and students.


The numbers don't show anything other than Penn and NU having a good year in 2011 as a result of the total chaos of OCI 2009. Two data points does not make for a trend.

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thelawyler
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby thelawyler » Wed May 09, 2012 1:34 am

Two points do make a line, though.

$$$$$$
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby $$$$$$ » Wed May 09, 2012 1:38 am

From where i've seen (never been to duke, but I assume it blows) and never seen U.Chi

Stanford - NYU/NU - Columbia (solely cause I love NYC) - UVa/Michigan - Berkeley - Penn - Harvard - Georgetown - Yale - Cornell/Duke




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