Power of Penn

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echamberlin8
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby echamberlin8 » Tue May 08, 2012 3:02 pm

keg411 wrote:Philadelphia >>>>>>>>>> DC. I swear DC is the most overrated city in the US. It is a horrible, horrible place.

Also, why Cambridge (Boston) is in the same sentence with places like Ann Arbor/Charlottesville/Ithaca makes zero sense.


Really? Why do you hate it so much? I have lived/worked in the DC area (I work by the White House, live in Arlington, VA) for several years now. I find it to be a great place. A lot of people who work at my firm used to work in NYC, and like it a lot better here.

I'm not bashing Philly, since I've only been there once or twice, and that was a while ago. Frankly, I'd rather go to U Penn than Georgetown even if Penn wasn't ranked higher. But that is mostly just because I want new experiences, not because I think DC is a bad city.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 3:38 pm

shoeshine wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.


Explain Berkeley then.

I think you are confusing correlation and causation.


The USNWR measures, chiefly:
1) school and faculty reputation;
2) LSAT scores;
3) spending per student.

Penn is weaker than CCN on all three measures. Therefore, assuming the validity of the measures, it is correct to say that Penn is appropriately ranked on the USNWR.

Now, you can disagree with the measure, particularly the LSAT measure, but at the same time realize that the LSAT measure is one of the chief variables that makes the top schools the top schools as far as USNWR goes. E.g. if we devalued the LSAT measure, Berkeley would almost certainly overtake Penn permanently for the #7 spot. And Michigan would also probably steal #8. In terms of faculty reputation score Penn hangs around the DNCG tier. And indeed it was part of that tier until well into this decade when they made some faculty improvements and really started playing the numbers game.

Now, going beyond USNWR ranking, you have to realize that LSAT is part of a feedback loop. High rank causes high-number people to attend which causes high rank. LSAT has been a defining characteristic of the top schools for decades. In another thread I posted an article from the 1980's studying historical school rankings, and the article looked at the correlation between the top rated law reviews and the LSAT score of the students at the schools.

With a few exceptions (Berkeley and Stanford, the West coast bring somewhat insulated) LSAT is a measure of the market value of a school's stock among students. The fact that NYU can put together a school almost twice the size from a pool of LSAT scores half the size says a lot about the value of NYU's stock.

woeisme
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby woeisme » Tue May 08, 2012 3:41 pm

yfwgi?

bfaiken
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby bfaiken » Tue May 08, 2012 3:50 pm

PMan99 wrote:
iamrobk wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Also... best location? Really?

Philadelphia is the last place on earth I want to spend three years.

T14 - Locations go like this.

Stanford>Berkeley>NYU>Columbia>GULC>Suburban/Rural College Towns (M, D, V, Y, H,C)>NU>Chicago>>>>>>>>>>Penn

This is a horrible opinion and you should feel ashamed of yourself.


Dude there's so much CULTURE in new york you don't understand


Spent a few years living in both. I'll take Philly over DC any day. DC is the most uptight, stuffy, smarmy city I've been in the US. You can't go to a happy hour without feeling underdressed and being asked what you do and where you're from at least a dozen times. There is absolutely ZERO legitimate culture in that city; it's all manufactured. Nobody is from there, and nobody plans to stay there. There are no cheap places to live, no cheap places to go out, nowhere to do anything cheap. As for Philly, it's essentially the opposite of everything I just said.

As for Penn, as someone who posted above said, it's probably the most appropriately ranked school in the t14.

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blink
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby blink » Tue May 08, 2012 4:04 pm

bfaiken wrote:
PMan99 wrote:
iamrobk wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Also... best location? Really?

Philadelphia is the last place on earth I want to spend three years.

T14 - Locations go like this.

Stanford>Berkeley>NYU>Columbia>GULC>Suburban/Rural College Towns (M, D, V, Y, H,C)>NU>Chicago>>>>>>>>>>Penn

This is a horrible opinion and you should feel ashamed of yourself.


Dude there's so much CULTURE in new york you don't understand


Spent a few years living in both. I'll take Philly over DC any day. DC is the most uptight, stuffy, smarmy city I've been in the US. You can't go to a happy hour without feeling underdressed and being asked what you do and where you're from at least a dozen times. There is absolutely ZERO legitimate culture in that city; it's all manufactured. Nobody is from there, and nobody plans to stay there. There are no cheap places to live, no cheap places to go out, nowhere to do anything cheap. As for Philly, it's essentially the opposite of everything I just said.

As for Penn, as someone who posted above said, it's probably the Yale: most appropriately ranked school in the t14.

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jkpolk
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby jkpolk » Tue May 08, 2012 4:06 pm

bfaiken wrote:Spent a few years living in both. I'll take Philly over DC any day. DC is the most uptight, stuffy, smarmy city I've been in the US. You can't go to a happy hour without feeling underdressed and being asked what you do and where you're from at least a dozen times. There is absolutely ZERO legitimate culture in that city; it's all manufactured. Nobody is from there, and nobody plans to stay there. There are no cheap places to live, no cheap places to go out, nowhere to do anything cheap. As for Philly, it's essentially the opposite of everything I just said.

As for Penn, as someone who posted above said, it's probably the most appropriately ranked school in the t14.


This is all false. You were clearly doing DC wrong.

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Sherwood2014
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Sherwood2014 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:07 pm

shoeshine wrote:Hmm, what is your library square footage like?

The building was designed by architects Harbeson, Hough, Livingston, & Larson, and built in 1962. It has a gross area of 201,215 square feet (18,693 m2). In addition to being the primary library on campus for social sciences and humanities, it also houses the Lippincott Library of The Wharton School, the Ormandy Music Library, and the Annenberg Rare Book and Manuscript Library. Van Pelt houses strong area-studies collections in African, Japanese, Latin American, Chinese, Middle East, South Asian, and Judiaica & Ancient Near East Studies. The Henry Charles Lea Library is located on the 6th floor of Van Pelt Library.[1] The library holds the Weigle Information Commons, located on the west side of the first floor.

shoeshine
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby shoeshine » Tue May 08, 2012 4:11 pm

iamrobk wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Also... best location? Really?

Philadelphia is the last place on earth I want to spend three years.

T14 - Locations go like this.

Stanford>Berkeley>NYU>Columbia>GULC>Suburban/Rural College Towns (M, D, V, Y, H,C)>NU>Chicago>>>>>>>>>>Penn

This is a horrible opinion and you should feel ashamed of yourself.


I regret nothing.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 4:25 pm

polkij333 wrote:
bfaiken wrote:Spent a few years living in both. I'll take Philly over DC any day. DC is the most uptight, stuffy, smarmy city I've been in the US. You can't go to a happy hour without feeling underdressed and being asked what you do and where you're from at least a dozen times. There is absolutely ZERO legitimate culture in that city; it's all manufactured. Nobody is from there, and nobody plans to stay there. There are no cheap places to live, no cheap places to go out, nowhere to do anything cheap. As for Philly, it's essentially the opposite of everything I just said.

As for Penn, as someone who posted above said, it's probably the most appropriately ranked school in the t14.


This is all false. You were clearly doing DC wrong.


I grew up in the D.C. Metro. He's 100% correct.

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jkpolk
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby jkpolk » Tue May 08, 2012 4:31 pm

rayiner wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
bfaiken wrote:Spent a few years living in both. I'll take Philly over DC any day. DC is the most uptight, stuffy, smarmy city I've been in the US. You can't go to a happy hour without feeling underdressed and being asked what you do and where you're from at least a dozen times. There is absolutely ZERO legitimate culture in that city; it's all manufactured. Nobody is from there, and nobody plans to stay there. There are no cheap places to live, no cheap places to go out, nowhere to do anything cheap. As for Philly, it's essentially the opposite of everything I just said.

As for Penn, as someone who posted above said, it's probably the most appropriately ranked school in the t14.


This is all false. You were clearly doing DC wrong.


I grew up in the D.C. Metro. He's 100% correct.


I work in DC, anecdote measuring contest?

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 4:35 pm

polkij333 wrote:
I work in DC, anecdote measuring contest?


My anecdote clearly wins. I lived there for some 15 years. OP's description is spot on. It's moderately nice for a short while for people with yuppie tendencies (myself included), but eventually the off-putting personalities of everyone there, the swamp-like nature of the weather, and the cultural provinciality builds to a healthy seething resentment.

gravityrides0
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby gravityrides0 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:38 pm

rayiner wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
I work in DC, anecdote measuring contest?


My anecdote clearly wins. I lived there for some 15 years. OP's description is spot on. It's moderately nice for a short while for people with yuppie tendencies (myself included), but eventually the off-putting personalities of everyone there, the swamp-like nature of the weather, and the cultural provinciality builds to a healthy seething resentment.


Well... uhhh... you were clearly doing DC wrong for 15 years....


U MAD?

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 4:43 pm

Don't get me wrong, DC is a perfectly nice place for three years of law school and maybe a couple of years as an associate, if you can stand the uptight, image-conscious, highly politicized culture. But eventually you'll realize that nobody has roots in the city, which has a pervasive effect on the culture. For example, I think one of the reasons the food scene is so anemic for such a large metro area is that the transient nature of the population makes it hard to build up brand loyalty for places that aren't immediately-recognizable chains.

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sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:44 pm

rayiner wrote:Don't get me wrong, DC is a perfectly nice place for three years of law school and maybe a couple of years as an associate, if you can stand the uptight, image-conscious, highly politicized culture. But eventually you'll realize that nobody has roots in the city, which has a pervasive effect on the culture. For example, I think one of the reasons the food scene is so anemic for such a large metro area is that the transient nature of the population makes it hard to build up brand loyalty for places that aren't immediately-recognizable chains.

This. When your local dish is a fucking half-smoke, you know its bad.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:17 pm

Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.

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sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:20 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.

lol at both of these. Also, dunno how Penn is undervalued by TLS, its placement into NYC is often cited.

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jkpolk
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby jkpolk » Tue May 08, 2012 5:24 pm

sundance95 wrote:
rayiner wrote:Don't get me wrong, DC is a perfectly nice place for three years of law school and maybe a couple of years as an associate, if you can stand the uptight, image-conscious, highly politicized culture. But eventually you'll realize that nobody has roots in the city, which has a pervasive effect on the culture. For example, I think one of the reasons the food scene is so anemic for such a large metro area is that the transient nature of the population makes it hard to build up brand loyalty for places that aren't immediately-recognizable chains.

This. When your local dish is a fucking half-smoke, you know its bad.


I think the transient nature of the city cuts both ways. You have more variety in fandom/interests/personal narrative. People are generally well educated and have a reason for being in DC. The culture is non-confrontational, and the dick measuring does not translate into people being unapproachably haughty ( if you meet certain thresholds :wink: ). Sure, the culture or food isn't as "distinguishable" as other major metro areas, but the area makes up for this in versatility.
Last edited by jkpolk on Tue May 08, 2012 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samara
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Samara » Tue May 08, 2012 5:24 pm

sundance95 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.

lol at both of these. Also, dunno how Penn is undervalued by TLS, its placement into NYC is often cited.

This. I think Penn is more often overvalued than undervalued, especially since it captured the misleading #1 spot in the NLJ go-to schools list. Since then, I've seen people try to peddle some T7 nonsense, but never seen anyone argue that it should be considered lower than its mid-T14 status.

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rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby rayiner » Tue May 08, 2012 5:28 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.


Nobody is under the impression that Wharton's prestige rubs-off on Penn Law kids. Chicago is a more elite name in the legal field much more so than Penn, which has never been as highly ranked as it is today. I think people here on TLS value Penn exactly where it should be valued, a place you go over Michigan or Virginia if you want NYC, but not over Chicago or NYU.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby willwilliams1334 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.


Nobody is under the impression that Wharton's prestige rubs-off on Penn Law kids. Chicago is a more elite name in the legal field much more so than Penn, which has never been as highly ranked as it is today. I think people here on TLS value Penn exactly where it should be valued, a place you go over Michigan or Virginia if you want NYC, but not over Chicago or NYU.


I am not talking about a prestige rub off. Wharton ties in to the alumni network, making the Penn alumni network , as far as the corporate world goes, extend further than a place like NYU.

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sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:42 pm

polkij333 wrote:I think the transient nature of the city cuts both ways. You have more variety in fandom/interests/personal narrative.

Dunno about fandom, but it seems like almost everyone is interested in, well, government and politics. And when you live in the city with the highest percentage of bachelor degrees in the country (as you point out), the 'personal narratives' tend to be rather similar, even if the contexts are different.
polkij333 wrote:People are generally well educated and have a reason for being in DC.

Right. Because they work there. And they wouldn't be there otherwise.
polkij333 wrote: The culture is non-confrontational, and the dick measuring does not translate into people being unapproachably haughty ( if you meet certain thresholds :wink: ).
Really?\

Typical first introduction in DC:

X: Hi, I'm X.
Y: I'm Y.
X: Where are you from?
Y: [Somewhere Else]. You?
X: [Somewhere Else 2].
[Exchange of anecdotes tenuously related to X and Y's respective Somewhere Elses].
X: Who do you work for?
Y: A. You?
X: Oh, nice. I work for B.
[Light chitchat while X & Y each smugly congratulate selves for being either more preftigious/important, or else being less of a sellout].

Sorry man, I know you like DC, but after living there five years, I don't think I could do it again.

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sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:43 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:Pretty thorough derail here. I really was pointing more at things like the Penn alumni network, their ivy league name, their incredible b-school, as to some of the things that I think make Penn so undervalued- perhaps not by the formula of USNWR, but certainly here on TLS.


Nobody is under the impression that Wharton's prestige rubs-off on Penn Law kids. Chicago is a more elite name in the legal field much more so than Penn, which has never been as highly ranked as it is today. I think people here on TLS value Penn exactly where it should be valued, a place you go over Michigan or Virginia if you want NYC, but not over Chicago or NYU.


I am not talking about a prestige rub off. Wharton ties in to the alumni network, making the Penn alumni network , as far as the corporate world goes, extend further than a place like NYU.

Really think its too soon to talk about Penn St. ruboffs, at least until the trial is over.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue May 08, 2012 5:59 pm

Yea, I live and work in DC too and I have to agree with the general sentiments in this thread.

To be fair though, there is some damn good food if you know where to look.

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Samara
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby Samara » Tue May 08, 2012 6:01 pm

The 9:30 Club and 80s punk bands are about the only good cultural things about DC. (Okay, and the sightseeing stuff I guess, but how many times can you go to the museums?)

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KevinP
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Re: Power of Penn

Postby KevinP » Tue May 08, 2012 6:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.


I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.html

Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:

"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf




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