What about the Kennedy center and Folger Shakespeare Theater/Library!?Samara wrote:The 9:30 Club and 80s punk bands are about the only good cultural things about DC. (Okay, and the sightseeing stuff I guess, but how many times can you go to the museums?)
Power of Penn Forum
- jkpolk
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Re: Power of Penn
- AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Power of Penn
Nah - CCP, NMV. It's only a matter of time.willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP
I can't believe people are trashing Chicago's location. It's in an attractive suburb with relatively cheap housing, about 15 minutes from one of the world's greatest downtowns.
- Detrox
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Re: Power of Penn
ITT: Penn trolls, Chicago trolls, Berkeley Trolls oh my!
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]KevinP wrote:Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:bk187 wrote:I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.htmlrayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.
"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf
[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.
- Tom Joad
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Re: Power of Penn
It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.
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Re: Power of Penn
The power of Penn is mightier than the sword.
- Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn
IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.rayiner wrote:Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]KevinP wrote:Although old and doesn't take into account the subsection of elite schools:bk187 wrote:I thought expenditures per student made more sense in explaining USNWR ranking disparities. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/08/h ... t-way.htmlrayiner wrote:I don't think it's to stupid considering the LSAT is one of the major things that keeps too schools ranked above others on USNWR.
"90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."
http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf
[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.
- sundance95
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Re: Power of Penn
No, OP was actually some rambling incoherent nonsense about Wharton rubbing off on PennLaw so tls doesn't love Penn enough.
- KevinP
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Re: Power of Penn
Very good points. This would imply GPAs would overstate rankings at the top whereas the LSAT would overstate rankings at the lower tiers.rayiner wrote: Right. Generally, rankings are determined mostly by median LSAT score. Within the subset of top schools, expenditures per capita have a greater influence on the ranking but only because the LSAT scores are so close together.[1]
[1] In terms of the computation they're even closer together than they seem because USNWR uses the percentile rank associated with each score rather than the numeric value itself. So the same 3-point gap that separates the HYS from DNCG doesn't count for much when you're talking about 99th versus 98th percentile, but counts for a lot when you're talking about 84th versus 75th percentile.
Rayiner's argument isn't a strawman because the OP mentions USNWR. The methodology of U.S. News is therefore relevant. See the bolded.Veyron wrote:
IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.
willwilliams1334 wrote:Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR or on TLS. School has great placement, perhaps the best location, and a fantastic alumni network that squarely encompasses the corporate world (Wharton). IMO, CCNP
- KevinP
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Re: Power of Penn
Also, under-appreciated. Seriously loled.thelawyler wrote:The power of Penn is mightier than the sword.
- willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn
Yeah, I definitely feel the ranking change is going to be at the expense of NYU. Just can't hold up against a giant like Penn. Also, I realize my statement with regard to including USNWR's application of its own formula was a little silly. Here on TLS though, I stand my ground. Penn is definitely on the rise.AntipodeanPhil wrote:Nah - CCP, NMV. It's only a matter of time.willwilliams1334 wrote:IMO, CCNP
I can't believe people are trashing Chicago's location. It's in an attractive suburb with relatively cheap housing, about 15 minutes from one of the world's greatest downtowns.
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.
You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.
Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.
- willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn
Another school that I personally feel may be on the rise.Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.
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- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
Duke is on a decades-long decline, what are you talking about.willwilliams1334 wrote:Another school that I personally feel may be on the rise.Tom Joad wrote:It is kind of common knowledge that the schools that are underrated on TLS are the non-splitter friendly T14s like Berkeley and Duke, also since they aren't totally NYC centric.
- willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn
rayiner wrote:OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.
You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.
Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.
Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
No school "self selects" out of DC. DC rejects you, not the other way around.willwilliams1334 wrote:rayiner wrote:OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.
You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.
Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.
Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.
Chicago's NYC placement is great. A lot of their class chooses to stay in Chicago, but plenty go to V10 in NYC. This data is old, but see: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html.
See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.
- willwilliams1334
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Re: Power of Penn
People definitely do self select out of DC, even if it means they just don't apply. Big time M@A, corporate all happens in NYC. There's no reason for alot of people to go to DC. Also I found that Columbia ahead of Harvard in those placements smelled fishy.rayiner wrote:No school "self selects" out of DC. DC rejects you, not the other way around.willwilliams1334 wrote:rayiner wrote:OP claimed that "Penn does not garner enough recognition, either in USNWR..." My contention is that as long as you accept the basic premise that LSAT scores are an important measure of school quality (a premise that pre-dates USNWR), Penn is ranked exactly where it should be.Veyron wrote: IDK wtf this strawman is all about. I don't think anyone denies that USNWR applies its own metric correctly. OP had more to do with overall school quality rather than rankings. Also, DC does indeed suck a nut. Philly any day, twice on Sundays.
You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU. In the USNWR peer reputation ranking, both are closer to H/S than to Penn. I think Leiter is a hack, but his scholarly impact ranking (which is at least objective) has Penn at the bottom of the T14. USNWR's lawyer/judge reputation score has Penn at best tying NYU. USNWR's (stupid) new employer survey has Penn outside the top 10. Now, don't get me wrong, I think all of these measures are stupid, but I think they're enough to offset the nothing that is the claim that Penn Law's benefits from some vague Ivy-league prestige.
Penn is a great school. It's clearly a better bet for big law than Michigan, Virginia, on down. At best it's tied with NYU for overall NYC placement, though weaker for the V10. It has none of Chicago's overall brand recognition in the legal field or ability to place into the snootiest markets like DC.
Penn self selects out of DC. Also, I thought Chicago didn't place well into NYC, relative to its rank/placement power.
Chicago's NYC placement is great. A lot of their class chooses to stay in Chicago, but plenty go to V10 in NYC. This data is old, but see: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html.
See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.
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- Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn
Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.
P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
People definitely do self select out of DC, even if it means they just don't apply. Big time M@A, corporate all happens in NYC. There's no reason for alot of people to go to DC. Also I found that Columbia ahead of Harvard in those placements smelled fishy.[/quote]willwilliams1334 wrote:See also what I think is still the definitive placement ranking: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.
Yes, individual people self-select out of DC, but there is no reason to believe that as a school Penn "self selects" out of DC any more than Chicago or NYU.
- skers
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Re: Power of Penn
So, one year of NLJ250> all other years of NLJ250?Veyron wrote:Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.
P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1Veyron wrote:Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.
P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg
If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:
Code: Select all
CLS: 1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0
Chi: 3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4
NYU: 4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8
NU: 2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6
Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0
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- Veyron
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Re: Power of Penn
Right, but if you look it the trend, its clear that the numbers have been moving in Penn's favor. While it would be nice to do recruiting in 2006, such an option is, unfortunately, not available to today's applicants and students.rayiner wrote:2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1Veyron wrote:Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.
P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg
If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:
Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?Code: Select all
CLS: 1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0 Chi: 3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4 NYU: 4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8 NU: 2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6 Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0
I could see the argument for people self-selecting out of DC from NYU since so many people go there precisely because they love NY and want to be there always. Penn and Chicago not so much (although we also have a fair contingent of New Yorkers who wanted to stay close to home).Yes, individual people self-select out of DC, but there is no reason to believe that as a school Penn "self selects" out of DC any more than Chicago or NYU.
- rayiner
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Re: Power of Penn
The numbers don't show anything other than Penn and NU having a good year in 2011 as a result of the total chaos of OCI 2009. Two data points does not make for a trend.Veyron wrote:Right, but if you look it the trend, its clear that the numbers have been moving in Penn's favor. While it would be nice to do recruiting in 2006, such an option is, unfortunately, not available to today's applicants and students.rayiner wrote:2011? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1Veyron wrote:Not unless it requires some weird act of keyboard contortion to link you to the NLJ 250 numbers.rayiner wrote:You really have to engage in contortions to come up with a ranking where Penn beats Chicago and NYU.
P.S. before you go all bbbbbuuuuttt the clerkships! on my ass, the difference between the clerkship placement of Chicago and Penn last year was 1%.
2010? http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
2009? http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
2008? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20090 ... chools.jpg
2007? http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg
If you look at the relative placement rank for each of the past five years, you get:
Can I start trolling about how it should be CCNU?Code: Select all
CLS: 1 1 2 3 3 = 2.0 Chi: 3 2 4 1 7 = 3.4 NYU: 4 4 8 9 9 = 6.8 NU: 2 5 1 8 2 = 3.6 Penn: 5 3 7 4 1 = 4.0
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Re: Power of Penn
Two points do make a line, though.
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Re: Power of Penn
From where i've seen (never been to duke, but I assume it blows) and never seen U.Chi
Stanford - NYU/NU - Columbia (solely cause I love NYC) - UVa/Michigan - Berkeley - Penn - Harvard - Georgetown - Yale - Cornell/Duke
Stanford - NYU/NU - Columbia (solely cause I love NYC) - UVa/Michigan - Berkeley - Penn - Harvard - Georgetown - Yale - Cornell/Duke
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