Penn v UCLA

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gravityrides0
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Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:34 pm

I am pretty sure I know what the answer to this is, but I want someone to shake my shoulders and yell at me.

Today I was accepted off of the Penn WL and am really stoked considering it was very unexpected... But my other recent development is an interview scheduled for this week with UCLA (which I've heard is likely to result in acceptance... UCLA was my first choice before I considered that a better East Coast school could actually be an option for me as a reverse splitter with an unimpressive cycle). I know that Penn has way more pull nationally and all around better job prospects, but I hope to end up in California eventually (sooner after law school is better than later). It's still the right choice to go to Penn, right? Should I cancel my UCLA interview to avoid the temptation of staying on the warm West Coast? Will I be able to find a job out west after Penn if/when I want one? Are east coasters usually able to compete in the Southern California market? if I can get used to the east coast cold/culture, I might be interested in NYC... but I do feel like a west coaster at heart.

Other info: not sure yet which area of law I would like to practice but at this point I'm interested in soft IP, antitrust, and potentially other nerdy things that don't require intense science credentials. also, I am def interested in biglaw.

Anyone have a good reason to still interview with/ consider UCLA?

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bk1
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby bk1 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:36 pm

If biglaw is more important to you than CA then easily Penn.

hellothisisme
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby hellothisisme » Mon May 07, 2012 6:41 pm

Everybody will probably say yes Penn is the best choice here. And I'm not going to contradict that. But I don't see why you should cancel the UCLA interview. It's not like you will HAVE to attend UCLA if you are accepted, but it'd be good to have that option on the table.

Also, UCLA can be pretty generous with scholarship $$$. They increased my scholarship twice (originally 90k, then 105k, now 120k-- that last increase was made just a few days ago so I believe they still have money available). And if financial considerations are an issue for you, it would be something to think about, especially because you want to end up in CA.

For the record, I chose 120k at UCLA over 15k at Chicago. I know some TLSers will think this is crazy, but I'm content. CA is where I want to be and 120k is a good chunk of change.

I do think that assuming equal/no money at the two schools, Penn is the better option.

I am one of the more debt averse people on TLS, so I think UCLA with money over Penn at sticker is something to think about. At the very least, I think you should still do the interview.
Last edited by hellothisisme on Mon May 07, 2012 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:47 pm

I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...

hellothisisme
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby hellothisisme » Mon May 07, 2012 6:49 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...


Okay, well, if you're absolutely sure you won't be getting merit aid, then yeah, Penn is the answer. A Penn degree with ties can get you back west.

But I still don't see the need to cancel the UCLA interview completely.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:56 pm

hellothisisme wrote:
gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...


Okay, well, if you're absolutely sure you won't be getting merit aid, then yeah, Penn is the answer. A Penn degree with ties can get you back west.

But I still don't see the need to cancel the UCLA interview completely.


Yeah, I'll probably still do it. It's just going to be heartbreaking because I fell in love with UCLA when I visited, met the person who will be interviewing me in person, etc... If Penn didn't happen, I would have gone in a heartbeat!

The reason I don't think I will get merit aid is because of a low LSAT score... Do you think the Penn acceptance would be leverage for UCLA aid? I wouldn't think so since I'm already just a WLer... Would it be in bad taste to mention Penn to them if I'm accepted?

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby Mr. Somebody » Mon May 07, 2012 6:58 pm

Has Penn told you there is no more scholarship money available, or are you just saying you won't get money based on your numbers or lack of other offers?

I think Penn is the better choice here

tjddk
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby tjddk » Mon May 07, 2012 7:00 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...


I chose NU over UCLA because of what a UCLA alum said to me at an admit event (a bit ironic, since his statement was intended to convince me to attend UCLA). When I asked about placement in northern California (since I absolutely hate SoCal), he said that there was something to be said for having a "rare" degree (from a comparable/better reputation) and how finding something in SF might be easier (I also have ties) than in LA, since the market's flooded with SC/LA grads. Don't cancel the interview, but I'd go for Penn in your situation.

Oh, and congrats!

Danteshek
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby Danteshek » Mon May 07, 2012 7:01 pm

Penn. There are no CA jobs (only a slight exaggeration)

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bk1
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby bk1 » Mon May 07, 2012 7:04 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...


There's pros and cons to each for CA biglaw. UCLA/USC have alumni networks and firms that expect to hire X number from each school every year. On the other hand Penn has more prestige and you are competing with fewer people for CA jobs. Honestly my belief is that it's probably a wash between the two for CA biglaw. But for other things it isn't even. Penn has a huge edge for biglaw (specifically NYC). On the other hand, it would be easier to get non-biglaw jobs in LA from USC/UCLA because you can network, intern during the school year, and make use of their alumni networks in non-biglaw jobs.

As noted above, it probably comes down to whether biglaw or CA is more important to you. Personally I think that since you're taking about 250k in debt from either school that you should care more about getting biglaw than where it is.

hellothisisme
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby hellothisisme » Mon May 07, 2012 7:06 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:
hellothisisme wrote:
gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...


Okay, well, if you're absolutely sure you won't be getting merit aid, then yeah, Penn is the answer. A Penn degree with ties can get you back west.

But I still don't see the need to cancel the UCLA interview completely.


Yeah, I'll probably still do it. It's just going to be heartbreaking because I fell in love with UCLA when I visited, met the person who will be interviewing me in person, etc... If Penn didn't happen, I would have gone in a heartbeat!

The reason I don't think I will get merit aid is because of a low LSAT score... Do you think the Penn acceptance would be leverage for UCLA aid? I wouldn't think so since I'm already just a WLer... Would it be in bad taste to mention Penn to them if I'm accepted?


I would definitely mention Penn to them as leverage. I used my Chicago acceptance as leverage and they increased my scholarship by 15k after already having increased it once. It's worth a shot, anyway.

Like I said, with equal/no aid or if UCLA only gives you a small scholarship, Penn is best. But if you get a decent amount of aid (which I wouldn't rule out completely), it's something to think about, especially because you really loved the school when you visited.

I can see everybody else is saying Penn though, so what do I know, I guess.
Last edited by hellothisisme on Mon May 07, 2012 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Mon May 07, 2012 7:22 pm

Well, the reason I am assuming no aid is because my LSAT is bottom 25% at both schools, but I guess it can't hurt to mention Penn and see if I get anything. The thing about rare degrees is interesting, but I assume that requires a lot of networking (I don't really have professional ties out here). I guess the bottom line is that Penn for the same cost as UCLA is smarter because it opens up more options overall?

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon May 07, 2012 8:28 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:I won't be getting $$ at either school, so that isn't factoring into my decision. Employment prospects are more important to me. I guess my concern is whether a Penn degree will be able to bring me back west, or whether UCLA/USC are usually favored and swoop all of the CA jobs...

Penn.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby willwilliams1334 » Tue May 08, 2012 1:39 am

Penn absolutely. Extremely prestigious, great biglaw chances, great location... You're lucky to have gotten in there, especially with those numbers. Don't throw away a great opportunity.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 08, 2012 10:01 am

OP: A few posts back, you wrote that your numbers were 170/3.7. If so, you are not in the bottom 25% LSAT for either law school & should expect significant scholarship money from UCLA. Although an earlier post claimed a 4.07/165.

If both are at sticker, then Penn is the better investment.

P.S. If I understand your situation, you have been accepted to Penn but you're on the UCLA waitlist. If so, then the decision is even easier; additionally, the real issue becomes how to handle your Penn acceptance during the UCLA interview : Whether to keep it confidential to avoid being rejected by UCLA or disclosing in hope of generating a significant scholarship offer from UCLA.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:27 am

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: A few posts back, you wrote that your numbers were 170/3.7. If so, you are not in the bottom 25% LSAT for either law school & should expect significant scholarship money from UCLA. Although an earlier post claimed a 4.07/165.

If both are at sticker, then Penn is the better investment.

P.S. If I understand your situation, you have been accepted to Penn but you're on the UCLA waitlist. If so, then the decision is even easier; additionally, the real issue becomes how to handle your Penn acceptance during the UCLA interview : Whether to keep it confidential to avoid being rejected by UCLA or disclosing in hope of generating a significant scholarship offer from UCLA.


haha uhhhhh I never claimed 170/3.7. I don't know where you saw that. maybe I was quoting someone? the other stats or correct.

And yes, your correct... the interview is tomorrow. I guess I will go through it with the mindset that my other acceptance didn't happen?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 08, 2012 11:33 am

My mistake. Your post included quotes from multiple posters & I misidentified the overlap.

If you approach your UCLA interview as if you have no other acceptances, then you are almost certain to not receive any scholarship consideration.

An approach to consider: (Assuming that your goal is to get accepted to UCLA with substantial scholarship money, and not just to get accepted to UCLA.) You've been accepted to Penn, but love LA, UCLA & are targeting SoCal biglaw. Penn is the obvious choice if both are at sticker price, but UCLA would be attractive with $X per year scholarship.

The question of other acceptances is almost certain to arise during your interview.

To state the obvious: Interviews & negotiations usually are more productive when both parties have specific goals in mind.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:42 am

CanadianWolf wrote:My mistake. Your post included quotes from multiple posters & I misidentified the overlap.

If you approach your UCLA interview as if you have no other acceptances, then you are almost certain to not receive any scholarship consideration.

An approach to consider: (Assuming that your goal is to get accepted to UCLA with substantial scholarship money, and not just to get accepted to UCLA.) You've been accepted to Penn, but love LA, UCLA & are targeting SoCal biglaw. Penn is the obvious choice if both are at sticker price, but UCLA would be attractive with $X per year scholarship.

The question of other acceptances is almost certain to arise during your interview.

To state the obvious: Interviews & negotiations usually are more productive when both parties have specific goals in mind.



Very good advice... If they don't bring up other acceptances, do you think it would be wise to bring it up at the end as sort of an honest dilemma and see what they say? I guess the worst that happens is they can tell I'm leaning Penn and decide not to risk admitting me?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 am

Determine your goal. If accepted to both Penn & UCLA at sticker, is there any room for debate in your decision ? Probably not. With a Penn acceptance at sticker price & an offer from UCLA with $90,000 or $105,000 or $X, is there room for debate as to which law school you'll attend ? Almost certainly.

You have to discuss your primary concerns in order to have a productive interview. The truth is that you are now more attractive with your Penn acceptance in hand.

P.S. As things now stand, you assume that no scholarship offer/consideration is forthcoming from UCLA & , therefore, in light of your Penn acceptance, want to cancel the interview.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue May 08, 2012 12:01 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Determine your goal. If accepted to both Penn & UCLA at sticker, is there any room for debate in your decision ? Probably not. With a Penn acceptance at sticker price & an offer from UCLA with $90,000 or $105,000 or $X, is there room for debate as to which law school you'll attend ? Almost certainly.

You have to discuss your primary concerns in order to have a productive interview. The truth is that you are now more attractive with your Penn acceptance in hand.

P.S. As things now stand, you assume that no scholarship offer/consideration is forthcoming from UCLA & , therefore, in light of your Penn acceptance, want to cancel the interview.


And what are you basing this statement on? He is attractive to UCLA because of his numbers - particularly they need his GPA. The Penn acceptance only makes him more expensive to them. Now, they're going to have to pony up cash to try to lure him away from a T14. Maybe some other applicants would be willing to pay sticker.

Get the acceptance first then start leveraging. Telling UCLA you will only go if they give you money is going to make them not want to deal with you.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Tue May 08, 2012 12:16 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Determine your goal. If accepted to both Penn & UCLA at sticker, is there any room for debate in your decision ? Probably not. With a Penn acceptance at sticker price & an offer from UCLA with $90,000 or $105,000 or $X, is there room for debate as to which law school you'll attend ? Almost certainly.

You have to discuss your primary concerns in order to have a productive interview. The truth is that you are now more attractive with your Penn acceptance in hand.

P.S. As things now stand, you assume that no scholarship offer/consideration is forthcoming from UCLA & , therefore, in light of your Penn acceptance, want to cancel the interview.


And what are you basing this statement on? He is attractive to UCLA because of his numbers - particularly they need his GPA. The Penn acceptance only makes him more expensive to them. Now, they're going to have to pony up cash to try to lure him away from a T14. Maybe some other applicants would be willing to pay sticker.

Get the acceptance first then start leveraging. Telling UCLA you will only go if they give you money is going to make them not want to deal with you.


That certainly seems more tactful... I think they call you to give you your acceptance and give you a couple days to decide, so I could always bring it up when I have to call them back.

Also, I'm a girl! :wink: haha.

gravityrides0
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby gravityrides0 » Wed May 09, 2012 7:45 pm

In at UCLA. Probably gonna hop on a plane to visit philly this week. I'm kinda freaking out... I really want to end up in CA... No $$ that I know of, but getting residency in CA would make UCLA cheaper as a 2L/3L... extremely torn.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby willwilliams1334 » Wed May 09, 2012 7:46 pm

gravityrides0 wrote:In at UCLA. Probably gonna hop on a plane to visit philly this week. I'm kinda freaking out... I really want to end up in CA... No $$ that I know of, but getting residency in CA would make UCLA cheaper as a 2L/3L... extremely torn.


Go to Penn if you want a job. You can lateral to CA later with ties.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Penn v UCLA

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed May 09, 2012 9:24 pm

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... yment+data

For the love of God, Penn.

(UCLA's not on there, but it can't be that much better than USC.)




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