Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where would you go?

Michigan 75k
19
27%
Duke 105k
52
73%
 
Total votes: 71

Tyeger87
Posts: 155
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Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Mon May 07, 2012 5:01 pm

I decided to throw up this poll to see what feedback I would get.

Just some info about me

1) I would like to limit debt as much as possible - i want to go to a good school but not pay an arm and a leg
2) I have an MA in International Human Rights Law - spent two years in Cairo, Egypt - most likely looking to head back abroad doing ngo work (please spare me the international law doesnt exist stuff)
3) Weather is not a big deal for me - despite never experiencing a real winter, I have no aversion to snow

if you need anymore info for your decision, let me know

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jkpolk
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby jkpolk » Mon May 07, 2012 5:02 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:I decided to throw up this poll to see what feedback I would get.

Just some info about me

1) I would like to limit debt as much as possible - i want to go to a good school but not pay an arm and a leg
2) I have an MA in International Human Rights Law - spent two years in Cairo, Egypt - most likely looking to head back abroad doing ngo work (please spare me the international law doesnt exist stuff)
3) Weather is not a big deal for me - despite never experiencing a real winter, I have no aversion to snow

if you need anymore info for your decision, let me know


If I were you, I'd go to Columbia.

tstev89
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby tstev89 » Mon May 07, 2012 5:13 pm

polkij333 wrote:
Tyeger87 wrote:I decided to throw up this poll to see what feedback I would get.

Just some info about me

1) I would like to limit debt as much as possible - i want to go to a good school but not pay an arm and a leg
2) I have an MA in International Human Rights Law - spent two years in Cairo, Egypt - most likely looking to head back abroad doing ngo work (please spare me the international law doesnt exist stuff)
3) Weather is not a big deal for me - despite never experiencing a real winter, I have no aversion to snow

if you need anymore info for your decision, let me know


If I were you, I'd go to Columbia.


Why aren't you considering Columbia? That should be a real contender. Between Duke and Michigan, I voted for Duke, since you want to avoid debt.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon May 07, 2012 5:16 pm

polkij333 wrote:If I were you, I'd go to Columbia.

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Dale
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Dale » Mon May 07, 2012 5:18 pm

If you are looking for a Big Law school and wanting to save money. Penn is near NYC, without the NYC COL. While Columbia is a great T-6 choice, PVB is also a Big Law ticket.

Tyeger87
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Mon May 07, 2012 5:20 pm

tstev89 wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
Tyeger87 wrote:I decided to throw up this poll to see what feedback I would get.

Just some info about me

1) I would like to limit debt as much as possible - i want to go to a good school but not pay an arm and a leg
2) I have an MA in International Human Rights Law - spent two years in Cairo, Egypt - most likely looking to head back abroad doing ngo work (please spare me the international law doesnt exist stuff)
3) Weather is not a big deal for me - despite never experiencing a real winter, I have no aversion to snow

if you need anymore info for your decision, let me know


If I were you, I'd go to Columbia.


Why aren't you considering Columbia? That should be a real contender. Between Duke and Michigan, I voted for Duke, since you want to avoid debt.


I would love to go to Columbia but I have to be realistic about the type of work I want to do and where I will be potentially living post graduation. The remainder of tuition + COL in NYC is a bit too high for me and I am not particularly fond of NYC. But more so its the COL.

And I am not at all interested in Big Law, so my potential payoff is very small compared to those shooting for big law and thus way bigger salaries that mine will probably ever be.

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sdphill
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby sdphill » Mon May 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Dale wrote:If you are looking for a Big Law school and wanting to save money. Penn is near NYC, without the NYC COL. While Columbia is a great T-6 choice, PVB is also a Big Law ticket.


She clearly stated that she wanted to do NGO work... So let's eliminate the "BIG LAW" idea.

Personally, I vote for Duke... And it'll be cheaper, because you won't have to heat your house that long, which will definitely save you an arm and a leg.

Tyeger87
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Mon May 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Dale wrote:If you are looking for a Big Law school and wanting to save money. Penn is near NYC, without the NYC COL. While Columbia is a great T-6 choice, PVB is also a Big Law ticket.


Penn rejected me.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon May 07, 2012 5:25 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:
tstev89 wrote:
polkij333 wrote:If I were you, I'd go to Columbia.


Why aren't you considering Columbia? That should be a real contender. Between Duke and Michigan, I voted for Duke, since you want to avoid debt.


I would love to go to Columbia but I have to be realistic about the type of work I want to do and where I will be potentially living post graduation. The remainder of tuition + COL in NYC is a bit too high for me and I am not particularly fond of NYC. But more so its the COL.

And I am not at all interested in Big Law, so my potential payoff is very small compared to those shooting for big law and thus way bigger salaries that mine will probably ever be.


Look at all of the faculty members at Columbia working in international law: http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... lty_intern

Also consider that you will be in NYC for three years, which will make it much easier to find an externship, summer internships, and possibly post-law school employment.

I realize the COL will be much higher, but if you really are deadset on NGO international law work, you should qualify for their LRAP program in some fashion.

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Dale
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Dale » Mon May 07, 2012 5:27 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:
Dale wrote:If you are looking for a Big Law school and wanting to save money. Penn is near NYC, without the NYC COL. While Columbia is a great T-6 choice, PVB is also a Big Law ticket.


Penn rejected me.

Opps. Sorry.

Then Duke for sure. Durham is a nice place (sure beats living near Detroit).

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cjcregg
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby cjcregg » Mon May 07, 2012 5:36 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Look at all of the faculty members at Columbia working in international law: http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... lty_intern

Also consider that you will be in NYC for three years, which will make it much easier to find an externship, summer internships, and possibly post-law school employment.

I realize the COL will be much higher, but if you really are deadset on NGO international law work, you should qualify for their LRAP program in some fashion.


Yeah, I personally think this is a no-brainer. What would the total CoL differential be? I think that factor is effectively negated by prestige, institutional support, access to summer jobs, and Columbia's LRAP.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon May 07, 2012 6:14 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:I decided to throw up this poll to see what feedback I would get.

Just some info about me

1) I would like to limit debt as much as possible - i want to go to a good school but not pay an arm and a leg
2) I have an MA in International Human Rights Law - spent two years in Cairo, Egypt - most likely looking to head back abroad doing ngo work (please spare me the international law doesnt exist stuff)
3) Weather is not a big deal for me - despite never experiencing a real winter, I have no aversion to snow

if you need anymore info for your decision, let me know

Have you looked into Michigan's Geneva International Fellows program? If you're interested in gaining access to international human rights opportunities, this really should be a game-changer for your decision. Every year, Michigan's pre-existing placements put an average of 14-16 students at IOs in the human rights capital of the world for a semester of academic credit, in addition to a series of seminars, speaker events, and networking opportunities exclusive to Michigan students. It's hard enough to have access to international human rights externships as an American law student during the summer, but Michigan's program is an entire semester of intensive experience instead of a shorter summer program surrounded by hoards of other interns from around the world competing for the same positions. Of course, every year many students who participate in this program still stay for the summer to work at other IOs in Geneva -- the networking opportunities are unparalleled when you can grab coffee/drinks with leading members of the international human rights community on a daily basis. There really isn't another program like it in the T14 (see: http://www.law.umich.edu/mlawglobal/internationalopportunities/Pages/Externships.aspx).

By comparison, Duke has a couple of placements that are pre-approved for academic credit by the curriculum committee (see: http://www.law.duke.edu/internat/exchange). Columbia has a semester-long program with 10-hour per week placements at the United Nations in New York (see: http://www.law.columbia.edu/programs/social-justice/externships/F10/UN), which is hardly the same as a semester of full time work at OHCHR, UNHCR, or other international organizations in Geneva for anyone interested in international human rights law. And while clinics geared towards human rights are wonderful, doing a clinic while balancing other courses is hardly a substitute for working full-time for the organizations that are actually on the ground making a difference. And, to address the other posters, all the big name professors in the world won't make more of an impression than working directly with the people that hire for these positions. Of course, Michigan has those names, too: Hathaway, Ratner, Simma, etc.

If you're really serious about this career path, I think Michigan puts all the opportunities you can ask for within your reach. If you have any specific questions, feel free to shoot me a pm.

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twenty
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby twenty » Mon May 07, 2012 6:41 pm

You have Columbia at 75k. Why haven't you put down a seat deposit yet? :p

TMC116
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby TMC116 » Mon May 07, 2012 8:55 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:You have Columbia at 75k. Why haven't you put down a seat deposit yet? :p


Dear Lord is this true? Columbia all the way (easily)

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quiver
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby quiver » Tue May 08, 2012 12:03 am

TMC116 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:You have Columbia at 75k. Why haven't you put down a seat deposit yet? :p


Dear Lord is this true? Columbia all the way (easily)
Yeah I have to agree with this. NYC COL is absurd but CLS really does provide great institutional support for international human rights stuff (HRIP, LRAP, etc.). I really think that's the way to go here.

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2014
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby 2014 » Tue May 08, 2012 12:54 am

Columbia at 75k for sure. The extra cost is worth it.

Tyeger87
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:00 pm

any other folks with input?

droidtime
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby droidtime » Tue May 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Columbia. However, if you don't want to attend Columbia, then Duke.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue May 08, 2012 4:06 pm

Dude bra, how do you have the same amount of money to Michigan and Columbia and you are still considering Michigan. This thread reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated, not someone who wants actual feedback. Go to Michigan if you really really want to but it is your worst option of the three.

Tyeger87
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:25 pm

Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:17 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:Dude bra, how do you have the same amount of money to Michigan and Columbia and you are still considering Michigan. This thread reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated, not someone who wants actual feedback. Go to Michigan if you really really want to but it is your worst option of the three.


I can see how it is difficult to understand why someone would be unable to comprehend why I would not choose Columbia but I legitimately wanted peoples opinions based on my situation between Duke and Michigan. Had Columbia not been in my profile (probably should have not included it) that option would not have been discussed.

The only reason you think it reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated is because you can't possibly forsee any reason why someone would turn down Columbia for anything lesser ranked.

I am not asking for anyone to say go to Duke or Michigan OVER Columbia but rather searching for useful advice to assist in my decision making calculus between Duke and Michigan.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue May 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Dude bra, how do you have the same amount of money to Michigan and Columbia and you are still considering Michigan. This thread reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated, not someone who wants actual feedback. Go to Michigan if you really really want to but it is your worst option of the three.


I can see how it is difficult to understand why someone would be unable to comprehend why I would not choose Columbia but I legitimately wanted peoples opinions based on my situation between Duke and Michigan. Had Columbia not been in my profile (probably should have not included it) that option would not have been discussed.

The only reason you think it reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated is because you can't possibly forsee any reason why someone would turn down Columbia for anything lesser ranked.

I am not asking for anyone to say go to Duke or Michigan OVER Columbia but rather searching for useful advice to assist in my decision making calculus between Duke and Michigan.


I never said you have to choose Columbia. But not having it listed as an option is dumb. You are trying to manipulate the feedback you get. You best options are between Duke and Columbia. Choose whatever one at this point will make you happier I guess. But sorry, a $35k difference between Duke and Columbia is immaterial. If you choose Duke it will be because of personal preferences, thus rendering the point of this thread moot.

Tyeger87
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:25 pm

Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby Tyeger87 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:26 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
Tyeger87 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Dude bra, how do you have the same amount of money to Michigan and Columbia and you are still considering Michigan. This thread reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated, not someone who wants actual feedback. Go to Michigan if you really really want to but it is your worst option of the three.


I can see how it is difficult to understand why someone would be unable to comprehend why I would not choose Columbia but I legitimately wanted peoples opinions based on my situation between Duke and Michigan. Had Columbia not been in my profile (probably should have not included it) that option would not have been discussed.

The only reason you think it reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated is because you can't possibly forsee any reason why someone would turn down Columbia for anything lesser ranked.

I am not asking for anyone to say go to Duke or Michigan OVER Columbia but rather searching for useful advice to assist in my decision making calculus between Duke and Michigan.


I never said you have to choose Columbia. But not having it listed as an option is dumb. You are trying to manipulate the feedback you get. You best options are between Duke and Columbia. Choose whatever one at this point will make you happier I guess. But sorry, a $35k difference between Duke and Columbia is immaterial. If you choose Duke it will be because of personal preferences, thus rendering the point of this thread moot.


I understand where you are coming from but I am not entirely sure how listing two option and asking for advice regarding those options is an attempt to manipulate feedback. You see it that way because if you were in my position, Columbia would be a viable option for you. There is a reason Columbia is not listed as a viable option.

In that case, I would want to know why you would value Duke over Michigan, which is the advice I was seeking in the first place.

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sdphill
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby sdphill » Tue May 08, 2012 4:35 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
I never said you have to choose Columbia. But not having it listed as an option is dumb. You are trying to manipulate the feedback you get. You best options are between Duke and Columbia. Choose whatever one at this point will make you happier I guess. But sorry, a $35k difference between Duke and Columbia is immaterial. If you choose Duke it will be because of personal preferences, thus rendering the point of this thread moot.


1) Referring to a woman as "dude/bra" is really rude... If you don't know the sex of the person, use gender neutral terms.

2) How is SHE manipulating the feedback she is receiving? She decided against Columbia and now she is only looking at Duke and Michigan. Yes, she MAY have received the same amount of money from both, but the COL is VERY different between the two, which is what is her main concern. She definitely wants to minimize costs, so that COL difference will ADD up.

3)Furthermore, has anyone asked if she has current loan debt? With $0 loan debt, $35 K seems immaterial, but on top of other loans, can definitely push her from having $1200/month paybacks to $2000/month paybacks. That can make a BIG difference on a 60K/yr salary.

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quiver
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby quiver » Tue May 08, 2012 4:45 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:I can see how it is difficult to understand why someone would be unable to comprehend why I would not choose Columbia but I legitimately wanted peoples opinions based on my situation between Duke and Michigan. Had Columbia not been in my profile (probably should have not included it) that option would not have been discussed.

The only reason you think it reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated is because you can't possibly forsee any reason why someone would turn down Columbia for anything lesser ranked.

I am not asking for anyone to say go to Duke or Michigan OVER Columbia but rather searching for useful advice to assist in my decision making calculus between Duke and Michigan.
I think everyone here understands that. The issue is that Columbia has great institutional support for the exact thing you want to do + a very good LRAP (i.e., extra loans will make little or no difference). Obviously NYC COL is ridiculous but everyone is saying that any difference in cost between CLS and Duke/Mich is outweighed by the two factors I just mentioned. Additionally, school prestige counts for more in the international arena then in the domestic arena and the Columbia name is better than Duke/Mich from that perspective too. I understand your hesitance about the COL, I really do, but the extra benefits from CLS and the fact that your loans will probably be covered by LRAP anyway negates that issue.

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sundance95
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Re: Duke $$ v. Michigan $$

Postby sundance95 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 pm

Tyeger87 wrote:The only reason you think it reeks of someone who wants their own opinions validated is because you can't possibly forsee any reason why someone would turn down Columbia for anything lesser ranked.

No, its because the premise that you've based your elimination of Columbia on is wrong. I'm not sure you realize how competitive high level public interest work is, or how few legal int'l PI positions there are. The ability to attend C at that price with that faculty expertise in your specific topic of interest should make this an easy choice.




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