Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

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anstone1988
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Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby anstone1988 » Sat May 05, 2012 4:52 pm

"Definitions of “top-tier” were even narrower for professional schools, primarily referring to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and to a lesser extent Columbia law schools, and Harvard, Wharton (University of Pennsylvania), and Stanford business schools." (--LinkRemoved--)

Does this article accurately describe the hiring process? Is Columbia perceived to be better than UChicago and NYU?
Last edited by anstone1988 on Sat May 05, 2012 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby Veyron » Sat May 05, 2012 5:00 pm

anstone1988 wrote:"Definitions of “top-tier” were even narrower for professional schools, primarily referring to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and to a lesser extent Columbia law schools, and Harvard, Wharton (University of Pennsylvania), and Stanford business schools."

Does this article accurately describe the hiring process? Is Columbia perceived to be better than UChicago and NYU?


Yes, CLS is marginally better for biglaw.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat May 05, 2012 5:01 pm

Link? Context?

Employment data is much better evidence than one journalist's opinion, and the employment data makes it clear that - in general - Chicago is on the same level as Columbia.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat May 05, 2012 5:06 pm

^
AP is probably right that CLS and UChi numbers are pretty similar, but you have to remember that CLS has double the number of students of UChi....who knows if the numbers would be the same if UChi had double the students? from the perspective of a student wanting employment, that is irrelevant, but i think it suggests that the CLS brand name carries further except in academia

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KevinP
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby KevinP » Sat May 05, 2012 5:08 pm

CLS probably has a slight advantage over NYU for biglaw (NYU probably has slight advantage over CLS for PI).

HYS is noticeably better than CLS (except maybe NYC biglaw).

CCN are essentially peers.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat May 05, 2012 5:10 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:^
AP is probably right that CLS and UChi numbers are pretty similar, but you have to remember that CLS has double the number of students of UChi....who knows if the numbers would be the same if UChi had double the students? from the perspective of a student wanting employment, that is irrelevant, but i think it suggests that the CLS brand name carries further except in academia

Yeah, they seem to be almost equivalent in academia - with perhaps a very slight edge to Chicago. I got jumped on a while back for suggesting Chicago was in a different class.

This thread is obvious troll bait, but I'm bored.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat May 05, 2012 5:11 pm

anstone1988 wrote:"Definitions of “top-tier” were even narrower for professional schools, primarily referring to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and to a lesser extent Columbia law schools, and Harvard, Wharton (University of Pennsylvania), and Stanford business schools."

Does this article accurately describe the hiring process? Is Columbia perceived to be better than UChicago and NYU?


Better than NYU outside of NYC for law. Chicago outplaces Columbia in most areas of the country because of the smaller class size which means easier pickings for most class members. However, there are more spots at elite firms for great Columbia grads because the top-ten percent is twice as big and the V15 are mostly in NYC. However, anecdotally top firms will go deeper into Chicago's class because of how dispersed the class is and not New York focused. For example, the target safety schools for those gunning at 2nd tier markets from the median were DPW, Weil, and the other NYC V15s. This is backed up by internal data which shows that V15 firms take people between the median and bottom 20%. Conversely, a Columbia person with ties may be able to exploit Chicago's two "blood bath" markets, Texas (Houston, Dallas) and Chicago-- where supply of grads exceeds demand. Those that didn't get firm jobs bid soley on these markets from the median most likely.

I don't think you left a link to an article, but in overall hiring rankings for professional schools, Columbia is at a disadvantage to Chicago, but better than NYU. Columbia and Chicago are peers in Medicine. Chicago's MBA program is a T5 (HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, Chicago Booth, SBS-- MIT sometimes) which was ranked #1 last year by Business Week and #4 by USNWR. Columbia is has a T7-20 MBA which in the MBA world is more akin to a WashU or George Washington-level law school in terms of hiring patterns.

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Veyron
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby Veyron » Sat May 05, 2012 5:20 pm

(1) The Chicago trolling on this board is redic. Expecially in spite of the fact of their recent NALP placement and clerkship combined stats.

(2) Its not that Colombia necessarily places a larger portion of their class in biglaw than the next few schools down the list, its more that ancidotally it seems like the truly elite firms give a slight edge CLS grads.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby quiver » Sat May 05, 2012 6:49 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:Better than NYU outside of NYC for law. Chicago outplaces Columbia in most areas of the country because of the smaller class size which means easier pickings for most class members.
First, if Chicago really does outplace Columbia in most areas of the country, then I think it's more because of self selection than any other reason. Second, I'm not sure where you're getting stats but, even on a percentage basis, Chicago outplaces Columbia only in the Midwest and South. Comparing CLS's 2011 class (who did OCI in 2009) and Chicago's 2010 class (who did OCI in 2008), CLS actually outpaced Chicago on the West Coast by a decent margin in both percentage (11.2% vs. 8.9%) and obviously raw numbers. I believe you were claiming in another thread that Chicago had an advantage over CLS on the West Coast but I didn't look at the numbers till now. In fact, looking at Chicago's past classes, it seems like the recession decimated their West Coast placement whereas the Columbia percentages are fairly constant.

See: Chicago employment and CLS employment for actual statistics.

TaipeiMort wrote:For example, the target safety schools for those gunning at 2nd tier markets from the median were DPW, Weil, and the other NYC V15s. This is backed up by internal data which shows that V15 firms take people between the median and bottom 20%.
I obviously don't have your internal statistics but are you really saying that Chicago students are waltzing into DPW by ranking 150/200? I would really love to see your stats on that. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to do that, but to say that people in the bottom 30%, 40%, or 50% of Chicago's class are routinely getting V10 SAs is a little unbelievable to me.

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rayiner
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby rayiner » Sat May 05, 2012 6:52 pm

quiver wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Better than NYU outside of NYC for law. Chicago outplaces Columbia in most areas of the country because of the smaller class size which means easier pickings for most class members.
First, if Chicago really does outplace Columbia in most areas of the country, then I think it's more because of self selection than any other reason. Second, I'm not sure where you're getting stats but, even on a percentage basis, Chicago outplaces Columbia only in the Midwest and South. Comparing CLS's 2011 class (who did OCI in 2009) and Chicago's 2010 class (who did OCI in 2008), CLS actually outpaced Chicago on the West Coast by a decent margin in both percentage (11.2% vs. 8.9%) and obviously raw numbers. I believe you were claiming in another thread that Chicago had an advantage over CLS on the West Coast but I didn't look at the numbers till now. In fact, looking at Chicago's past classes, it seems like the recession decimated their West Coast placement whereas the Columbia percentages are fairly constant.

See: Chicago employment and CLS employment for actual statistics.

TaipeiMort wrote:For example, the target safety schools for those gunning at 2nd tier markets from the median were DPW, Weil, and the other NYC V15s. This is backed up by internal data which shows that V15 firms take people between the median and bottom 20%.
I obviously don't have your internal statistics but are you really saying that Chicago students are waltzing into DPW by ranking 150/200? I would really love to see your stats on that. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to do that, but to say that people in the bottom 30%, 40%, or 50% of Chicago's class are routinely getting V10 SAs is a little unbelievable to me.


I've seen the Chicago data. He's talking about grade ranges not medians.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat May 05, 2012 7:13 pm

TaipeiMort wrote: For example, the target safety schools for those gunning at 2nd tier markets from the median were DPW, Weil, and the other NYC V15s.

I have read this sentence like ten times and have no idea what it means. If you are suggesting what I think you are, why do any Chicago grads end up at lower V100 NYC firms? You continually imply that the most selective firms in New York are thrilled to have the dregs of the class from Chicago because you guys are just so scarce and find the notion of living in NYC so distasteful. I feel safe saying this is unmitigated manure.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby JasonR » Sat May 05, 2012 7:46 pm

He meant firms, not schools.

I don't know why I still enjoy Mort's trolling so much.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Chicago grads -can- get DPW and Weil in secondary markets as long as they are top 80%? Very impressive.

Maybe all of those "Chicago is almost as good as Harvard" trolls are on to something.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:20 pm

LOL Tiapi Mort thinking that grade ranges mean that people within that range are all getting callbacks. I guess Cravath calls back everyone at NU with a 2.8, and Latham DC calls back everyone down to 2.66.

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rayiner
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby rayiner » Sat May 05, 2012 8:28 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Chicago grads -can- get DPW and Weil in secondary markets as long as they are top 80%? Very impressive.

Maybe all of those "Chicago is almost as good as Harvard" trolls are on to something.


Is he implying DPW and Weil are less selective in secondary markets? Of the associates at DPW SV, half are HYS.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:32 pm

rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Chicago grads -can- get DPW and Weil in secondary markets as long as they are top 80%? Very impressive.

Maybe all of those "Chicago is almost as good as Harvard" trolls are on to something.


Is he implying DPW and Weil are less selective in secondary markets? Of the associates at DPW SV, half are HYS.


That's how I interpreted it. But who knows.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat May 05, 2012 8:41 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Chicago grads -can- get DPW and Weil in secondary markets as long as they are top 80%? Very impressive.

Maybe all of those "Chicago is almost as good as Harvard" trolls are on to something.


Is he implying DPW and Weil are less selective in secondary markets? Of the associates at DPW SV, half are HYS.


That's how I interpreted it. But who knows.


He was saying that for those targeting secondary markets the safety options, should offers in the secondary market not materialize, were NYC BigLaw firms like Weil and DPW.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat May 05, 2012 9:17 pm

That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby chasgoose » Sat May 05, 2012 11:28 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.


How many people got callbacks from Cravath in the class of 2012? I heard it was 0...

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby TaipeiMort » Sun May 06, 2012 12:05 am

chasgoose wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.


How many people got callbacks from Cravath in the class of 2012? I heard it was 0...


We don't get CB #s on our sheet, but I do know of at least 3 that got them this year. If the subtext is that Columbia will be given more slots at V5 firms than Chicago, I wholeheartedly agree. It is awesome how many slots Columbia and Harvard probably have more SAs in NYC combined than Chicago has students in the class.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 12:08 am

chasgoose wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.


How many people got callbacks from Cravath in the class of 2012? I heard it was 0...


I would be very surprised if this was true. There were several NU people at Cravath last summer.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby chasgoose » Sun May 06, 2012 12:13 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
chasgoose wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.


How many people got callbacks from Cravath in the class of 2012? I heard it was 0...


We don't get CB #s on our sheet, but I do know of at least 3 that got them this year. If the subtext is that Columbia will be given more slots at V5 firms than Chicago, I wholeheartedly agree. It is awesome how many slots Columbia and Harvard probably have form associates in NYC combined than Chicago has students in their class.


Skadden isn't as grade conscious as most V5 firms at any school. My point was mainly that Chicago offers no real advantage over CLS/NYU in terms of V15 hiring. I'm not saying that either of those schools do better, it varies, but overall the schools are about equal. For example, this year NYU did the best at DPW (even proportionally), next year it could be Chicago, next year it could be CLS. Arguing one is definitively better than the other for V15 hiring is a fools game.

Re: the Cravath comment, I heard something about how the interviewer was weird and didn't hire anyone that year from a friend who ended up at another V5.

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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 12:18 am

chasgoose wrote:Re: the Cravath comment, I heard something about how the interviewer was weird and didn't hire anyone that year from a friend who ended up at another V5.


That's entirely possible.

I think by and large U Chicago folks are too cerebral to go to NYC V5's. More than a third of the class stays in Illinois, almost certainly by choice considering the relative difficulty of getting a job in NYC versus Chicago. A quarter end up in NY, which means less than 50 people. In a summer class at a V10 you'll see just 2-3 U Chicago folks compared to 10-20 CLS/NYU folks.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby TaipeiMort » Sun May 06, 2012 12:19 am

chasgoose wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
chasgoose wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:That is exactly what I was saying. It is much harder to get V&E or F&J in Texas or the 3-5 Chicago firms than it is DPW, Simpson Thacher, Weil, Debevoise, etc. It was also harder to get V50 firm jobs in NYC. This all has to do with the demand for Chicago grads at the firms with huge summer classes in NYC, and the relatively small supply of Chicago people. I get my data fromthe packet OCS hands out. It also helps that we don't have a class rank, and few know how many people really. Have 177+ GPAs
It could be much higher than 50%.


How many people got callbacks from Cravath in the class of 2012? I heard it was 0...


We don't get CB #s on our sheet, but I do know of at least 3 that got them this year. If the subtext is that Columbia will be given more slots at V5 firms than Chicago, I wholeheartedly agree. It is awesome how many slots Columbia and Harvard probably have form associates in NYC combined than Chicago has students in their class.


Skadden isn't as grade conscious as most V5 firms at any school. My point was mainly that Chicago offers no real advantage over CLS/NYU in terms of V15 hiring. I'm not saying that either of those schools do better, it varies, but overall the schools are about equal. For example, this year NYU did the best at DPW (even proportionally), next year it could be Chicago, next year it could be CLS. Arguing one is definitively better than the other for V15 hiring is a fools game.

Re: the Cravath comment, I heard something about how the interviewer was weird and didn't hire anyone that year from a friend who ended up at another V5.


My point isn't that Chicago does better (I always thought Columbia, then NYU, then Chicago in terms of % placement into NYC deals firms aka V15). My point is that it is less competitive at Chicago because you really are competing against your classmates for spots, and having a small class with a lot of Chicagans and Californians and conservatives from the West, Mountain West, South, and Texas makes getting V15 NYC easier down the curve than NYC or Columbia which have a ton of people self-selecting into those schools because they want NYC biglaw

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Comparing Columbia to HYS with regards to employment

Postby TaipeiMort » Sun May 06, 2012 12:21 am

rayiner wrote:
chasgoose wrote:Re: the Cravath comment, I heard something about how the interviewer was weird and didn't hire anyone that year from a friend who ended up at another V5.


That's entirely possible.

I think by and large U Chicago folks are too cerebral to go to NYC V5's. More than a third of the class stays in Illinois, almost certainly by choice considering the relative difficulty of getting a job in NYC versus Chicago. A quarter end up in NY, which means less than 50 people. In a summer class at a V10 you'll see just 2-3 U Chicago folks compared to 10-20 CLS/NYU folks.


NU is a very hard school to compare to others because there are so many ballers with work experience who transcend the curve. NU students therefore do pretty awesome at top firms, especially Kirkland and Sidley, and I'd guess V15 firms, as well as small deals firms on the West Coast like WSGR, Cooley, Goodwin Procter, etc.




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