ND or Fordham

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igel
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ND or Fordham

Postby igel » Wed May 02, 2012 2:13 pm

ND: sticker, Fordham: 10,000 but I am not really concerned about the money
just wondering which one might give me a better chance at Big Law? I'm currently living in New York but I really can work anywhere, as long as I get a job......
any suggestions? Thanks!!!!

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bk1
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby bk1 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:36 pm

1. Why aren't you concerned about the money? Both of these schools would put you over 200k in debt by the time you graduate.That's a lot of money to owe.

2. You probably won't get biglaw from either of these schools.

3. You should retake/reapply if you're paying for either of these with loans. If someone's helping you then Fordham I guess.

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Wed May 02, 2012 3:23 pm

I would go with Notre Dame and it’s not even close. Look at the scores from LST of each school. 21% of students at Fordham are underemployed vs. 8 % at Notre Dame. Meanwhile Fordham places only 5% more into large firms than Notre Dame even though Fordham is in the belly of big law hiring. Notre Dame's overall score is 84% while Fordham is a 68%. If you strike out oci big law at Notre Dame at least you will be employed as a Lawyer. Also Notre Dame will be 55k cheaper if both at sticker. Notre Dame's score places it above almost all the schools in the 15-30 range with it's placement score as good as some schools in the T14.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed May 02, 2012 11:58 pm

answer23 wrote:I would go with Notre Dame and it’s not even close. Look at the scores from LST of each school. 21% of students at Fordham are underemployed vs. 8 % at Notre Dame. Meanwhile Fordham places only 5% more into large firms than Notre Dame even though Fordham is in the belly of big law hiring. Notre Dame's overall score is 84% while Fordham is a 68%. If you strike out oci big law at Notre Dame at least you will be employed as a Lawyer. Also Notre Dame will be 55k cheaper if both at sticker. Notre Dame's score places it above almost all the schools in the 15-30 range with it's placement score as good as some schools in the T14.

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What the fuck?

If you're set on biglaw and don't care about the cost, look at the NLJ data, which shows that Fordham gives you a better shot than Notre Dame.
However, there's more downside risk of getting nothing, so if you're a pessimist go to Notre Dame - but then, a pessimist wouldn't be gunning for biglaw at either

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top30man
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby top30man » Thu May 03, 2012 12:15 am

dingbat wrote:
answer23 wrote:I would go with Notre Dame and it’s not even close. Look at the scores from LST of each school. 21% of students at Fordham are underemployed vs. 8 % at Notre Dame. Meanwhile Fordham places only 5% more into large firms than Notre Dame even though Fordham is in the belly of big law hiring. Notre Dame's overall score is 84% while Fordham is a 68%. If you strike out oci big law at Notre Dame at least you will be employed as a Lawyer. Also Notre Dame will be 55k cheaper if both at sticker. Notre Dame's score places it above almost all the schools in the 15-30 range with it's placement score as good as some schools in the T14.

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What the fuck?

If you're set on biglaw and don't care about the cost, look at the NLJ data, which shows that Fordham gives you a better shot than Notre Dame.
However, there's more downside risk of getting nothing, so if you're a pessimist go to Notre Dame - but then, a pessimist wouldn't be gunning for biglaw at either


I agree with dingbat here. What the hell. ND does not have placement that is equal to "some t14s." which ones exactly? The data disagrees with you.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Thu May 03, 2012 12:19 am

On a side note, how does someone join in 2009 and only reach the 30 post mark in 2012?

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Thu May 03, 2012 7:16 am

top30man wrote:
dingbat wrote:
answer23 wrote:I would go with Notre Dame and it’s not even close. Look at the scores from LST of each school. 21% of students at Fordham are underemployed vs. 8 % at Notre Dame. Meanwhile Fordham places only 5% more into large firms than Notre Dame even though Fordham is in the belly of big law hiring. Notre Dame's overall score is 84% while Fordham is a 68%. If you strike out oci big law at Notre Dame at least you will be employed as a Lawyer. Also Notre Dame will be 55k cheaper if both at sticker. Notre Dame's score places it above almost all the schools in the 15-30 range with it's placement score as good as some schools in the T14.

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What the fuck?

If you're set on biglaw and don't care about the cost, look at the NLJ data, which shows that Fordham gives you a better shot than Notre Dame.
However, there's more downside risk of getting nothing, so if you're a pessimist go to Notre Dame - but then, a pessimist wouldn't be gunning for biglaw at either


I agree with dingbat here. What the hell. ND does not have placement that is equal to "some t14s." which ones exactly? The data disagrees with you.


Sorry I misread the data. ND's employment score is better than all the schools in the 15-30 range. ND's employment score is higher than Duke and Gtown. 84% vs 80% and 67 % So you're right their employment score is not equal. But you also have to take into account that gtown's large firm placement is higher than ND. But if you strike out you are sol.

igel
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby igel » Mon May 07, 2012 12:53 am

Thank you guys!!!
if I want to transfer after 1L, would it help to go to ND because it is slightly higher-ranked and people generally have heard about it before?

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Icculus
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby Icculus » Mon May 07, 2012 12:57 am

igel wrote:Thank you guys!!!
if I want to transfer after 1L, would it help to go to ND because it is slightly higher-ranked and people generally have heard about it before?


First piece of advice: don't go to a school you plan on transferring from, only go to a school you'll be happy graduating from.
As for name, the thing that matters most when transferring are your grades, I very much doubt name recognition at ND or Fordham would impact your transfer ability if you finish high enough in the class to transfer.

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tedalbany
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby tedalbany » Mon May 07, 2012 12:59 am

answer23 wrote:
top30man wrote:
dingbat wrote:
answer23 wrote:I would go with Notre Dame and it’s not even close. Look at the scores from LST of each school. 21% of students at Fordham are underemployed vs. 8 % at Notre Dame. Meanwhile Fordham places only 5% more into large firms than Notre Dame even though Fordham is in the belly of big law hiring. Notre Dame's overall score is 84% while Fordham is a 68%. If you strike out oci big law at Notre Dame at least you will be employed as a Lawyer. Also Notre Dame will be 55k cheaper if both at sticker. Notre Dame's score places it above almost all the schools in the 15-30 range with it's placement score as good as some schools in the T14.

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What the fuck?

If you're set on biglaw and don't care about the cost, look at the NLJ data, which shows that Fordham gives you a better shot than Notre Dame.
However, there's more downside risk of getting nothing, so if you're a pessimist go to Notre Dame - but then, a pessimist wouldn't be gunning for biglaw at either


I agree with dingbat here. What the hell. ND does not have placement that is equal to "some t14s." which ones exactly? The data disagrees with you.


Sorry I misread the data. ND's employment score is better than all the schools in the 15-30 range. ND's employment score is higher than Duke and Gtown. 84% vs 80% and 67 % So you're right their employment score is not equal. But you also have to take into account that gtown's large firm placement is higher than ND. But if you strike out you are sol.


This is the worst ND trolling I've ever seen.

igel
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby igel » Mon May 07, 2012 3:27 am

Icculus wrote:
igel wrote:Thank you guys!!!
if I want to transfer after 1L, would it help to go to ND because it is slightly higher-ranked and people generally have heard about it before?


First piece of advice: don't go to a school you plan on transferring from, only go to a school you'll be happy graduating from.
As for name, the thing that matters most when transferring are your grades, I very much doubt name recognition at ND or Fordham would impact your transfer ability if you finish high enough in the class to transfer.


thanks and yeah I agree, transfer is just an ideal outcome
but just to be prepared, in order to transfer to T-14 school, say Northwestern or Cornell, do I have to be at least top 10% at either ND or Fordham?
what about T6?

I've heard that if you have the grades from Fordham to transfer to NYU/Columbia, you'll get a biglaw job anyways.....

rad lulz
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 07, 2012 5:06 am

Dawg go read the sticker in the transfer forum. Also, if you're taking out loans, you're an idiot if you don't care about cost.

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 pm

This is the worst ND trolling I've ever seen.[/quote]

Why do you say that? I'm just reporting the data from Law School Transparency. Unless you think that the employment score from law school transparency is worthless/unimportant there is no basis for your claim. The facts are ND does pretty well for full time bar required placement compared to Fordham and all schools in the 15-30 range. Am I missing something here? I would love to be corrected if I'm reading the data wrong. Replies such as "what the fuck" or "troll" does not change the facts of what you may have held to be gospel when data shows that your gospel is false. There is a huge gap between 84% and 68 %. I would not feel comfortable paying 200k plus for a 21% chance of being underemployed after graduation either.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed May 09, 2012 3:58 pm

It's true that Fordham has more downside risk and if your concern is to get any job, go to Nitre Dame
If you are gunning for biglaw and missed the T14, go to Fordham
That's not particularly difficult.

EXPLANATION
the issue is what data set you're using. Looking at overall employment, ND is pretty good, but looking at biglaw placement, not so much.
Yep, overall class employment at Notre Dame can match T14 (taking your word for it, I'm not gonna look this up), but what kind of job? I'm not paying $200k plus for a minuscule chance at a well-paying job; I want to maximize my chance at the big bucks
(not true for me for reasons I won't get into here, but that is the way I'd look at it if I was in your shoes)
Last edited by dingbat on Wed May 09, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tedalbany
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby tedalbany » Wed May 09, 2012 4:05 pm

answer23 wrote:
This is the worst ND trolling I've ever seen.


Why do you say that? I'm just reporting the data from Law School Transparency. Unless you think that the employment score from law school transparency is worthless/unimportant there is no basis for your claim. The facts are ND does pretty well for full time bar required placement compared to Fordham and all schools in the 15-30 range. Am I missing something here? I would love to be corrected if I'm reading the data wrong. Replies such as "what the fuck" or "troll" does not change the facts of what you may have held to be gospel when data shows that your gospel is false. There is a huge gap between 84% and 68 %. I would not feel comfortable paying 200k plus for a 21% chance of being underemployed after graduation either.


Because you're implying that ND is better than or equal to GULC/Duke.

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:37 pm

dingbat wrote:It's true that Fordham has more downside risk and if your concern is to get any job, go to Nitre Dame
If you are gunning for biglaw and missed the T14, go to Fordham
That's not particularly difficult.

EXPLANATION
the issue is what data set you're using. Looking at overall employment, ND is pretty good, but looking at biglaw placement, not so much.
Yep, overall class employment at Notre Dame can match T14 (taking your word for it, I'm not gonna look this up), but what kind of job? I'm not paying $200k plus for a minuscule chance at a well-paying job; I want to maximize my chance at the big bucks
(not true for me for reasons I won't get into here, but that is the way I'd look at it if I was in your shoes)


That is not true at all. ND's Large firm placement is 29% and Fordham's 35%. I was just saying that a 6 percentage difference in large firm placement is not enough to pick Fordham over ND when ND's overall placement in Full Time Bar required jobs is significantly better than Fordham's. I don't understand where this sentiment is coming from. All the data points I've look at shows ND to be a superior choice. US rankings of big firms has ND at 18. National Jurist has ND at 13 for Standard of living http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Forbes has ND at #10 for mid-career salary http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenha ... ng-rich/2/
plus the same Forbes Magazine did not have ND at the top 10 for entry level salary position http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsm ... he-most/2/

My guess is that this has to do with the alumni association. If you get any Bar required attorney position at ND and you know how to network you will eventually do very well for yourself if you use the fanatical alumni network wisely. I'm also guessing that the alumni network has a lot to do with ND's strong overall employment score. They may not be able to get you big law to start, but if you hang in there your chances of snatching up a cushy in house or other non-big law gig mid-career as an ND alumni is very strong. On top of that Large Firm does not always equal Big Bucks especially in NYC. There are plenty of firms in NYC with over 100 + Attorneys that pays between 40k-60 to start. Think about firms like Jacoby & [deleted] or Fitzgerald & Fitzgerald and other TV and subway commercial type of firms that have well over 100 attorneys. Also you have to take into account that Fordham is in NYC. There are plenty of BIGLAW firms who hire at Fordham for non-partnered track staff attorney positions who are essentially case managers that will never use any legal skills.

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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed May 09, 2012 4:56 pm

Everything you said is a fair point that I'm willing to concede (even where I disagree) except the mid career switch.
Seriously, at that point your track record matters far more than your alumni network. Nobody cares where you went to school if you havent done anything productive for the last ten years
If anything, that information is an indicator of past glory, not current prospects

Note that if you're gunning for biglaw, that extra 6% chance of biglaw translates as 21% more likely to get it. I'm not arguing that ND isn't a good school, just that if you're gunning for biglaw (as you originally stated) then that is a big difference.
On a separate note, are you looking at the most recent data?

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:59 pm

tedalbany wrote:
answer23 wrote:
This is the worst ND trolling I've ever seen.


Why do you say that? I'm just reporting the data from Law School Transparency. Unless you think that the employment score from law school transparency is worthless/unimportant there is no basis for your claim. The facts are ND does pretty well for full time bar required placement compared to Fordham and all schools in the 15-30 range. Am I missing something here? I would love to be corrected if I'm reading the data wrong. Replies such as "what the fuck" or "troll" does not change the facts of what you may have held to be gospel when data shows that your gospel is false. There is a huge gap between 84% and 68 %. I would not feel comfortable paying 200k plus for a 21% chance of being underemployed after graduation either.


Because you're implying that ND is better than or equal to GULC/Duke.


It depends on what you mean by better. For BigLaw the answer is NO. For Bar required full time legal work the data says yes. I never said ND was better overall than those 2 schools for any and everyone. It would depend on the totality of your circumstances. If you are Big Law or bust than yes go to duke or GULC sticker over ND full ride by all means. If you want PI or anything else or don't really know what you want to do it depends on a lot of factors. I've read too many repeat the fail tls logic that big law placement power is a proxy for good placement in other fields. That is not true at all. What Biglaw firms may value in a school might not be the same for an ADA, County Prosecutor or other non-big law jobs.

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Wed May 09, 2012 5:25 pm

dingbat wrote:Everything you said is a fair point that I'm willing to concede (even where I disagree) except the mid career switch.
Seriously, at that point your track record matters far more than your alumni network. Nobody cares where you went to school if you havent done anything productive for the last ten years
If anything, that information is an indicator of past glory, not current prospects

Note that if you're gunning for biglaw, that extra 6% chance of biglaw translates as 21% more likely to get it. I'm not arguing that ND isn't a good school, just that if you're gunning for biglaw (as you originally stated) then that is a big difference.
On a separate note, are you looking at the most recent data?


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Looking at past data palcement, ND has always place around 28% into NLJ250.
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf
NLJ250 data in the 2000's has ND at around 20-30%% same as always. Either those who did not get Biglaw are somehow catapulted themselves to have a very high salary by alumni, hard work, determination, more likely to make partner if they do get biglaw or a combination of all the above or Forbes magazine data is screwy. I've heard stories of Big Bank/ midcap corporation CEO's who went to ND who hired the ND Municipal employment lawyer or government contacts attorney they've met at a tailgate party for a midcareer in-house position at double the salary or sometimes tripple.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed May 09, 2012 9:08 pm

answer23 wrote:
dingbat wrote:Everything you said is a fair point that I'm willing to concede (even where I disagree) except the mid career switch.
Seriously, at that point your track record matters far more than your alumni network. Nobody cares where you went to school if you havent done anything productive for the last ten years
If anything, that information is an indicator of past glory, not current prospects

Note that if you're gunning for biglaw, that extra 6% chance of biglaw translates as 21% more likely to get it. I'm not arguing that ND isn't a good school, just that if you're gunning for biglaw (as you originally stated) then that is a big difference.
On a separate note, are you looking at the most recent data?


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Looking at past data palcement, ND has always place around 28% into NLJ250.
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf
NLJ250 data in the 2000's has ND at around 20-30%% same as always. Either those who did not get Biglaw are somehow catapulted themselves to have a very high salary by alumni, hard work, determination, more likely to make partner if they do get biglaw or a combination of all the above or Forbes magazine data is screwy. I've heard stories of Big Bank/ midcap corporation CEO's who went to ND who hired the ND Municipal employment lawyer or government contacts attorney they've met at a tailgate party for a midcareer in-house position at double the salary or sometimes tripple.

So they hired someone who was making about $50k for $100k? in my book that doesn't count for much. When you're talking $200k+, that's not the result of tailgating.
ND is a good school, and it does ok in Biglaw, don't get me wrong.
But don't think you'll be able to just schmooze your way up without building up a track record
(also, mid-career is more like 15-20 years out, so the 2005 stats aren't the most relevant, but that's neither here nor there)

edit: ND is consistently 20-30%, whereas Fordham is consistently 25%-40%
I'm not saying ND is a lesser school, it isn't, but Fordham has better biglaw placement, which was the initial question.
Have fun at ND (go Fighting Irish)
Last edited by dingbat on Wed May 09, 2012 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed May 09, 2012 10:28 pm

Retake.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed May 09, 2012 11:55 pm

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=183053
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... Bd3c&gid=3

If you're at or above median, Fordham places better.
I'll concede (without looking at any data) that if you're below median, you're better off at ND

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Fri May 11, 2012 12:58 pm

dingbat wrote:Everything you said is a fair point that I'm willing to concede (even where I disagree) except the mid career switch.
Seriously, at that point your track record matters far more than your alumni network. Nobody cares where you went to school if you havent done anything productive for the last ten years
If anything, that information is an indicator of past glory, not current prospects

Note that if you're gunning for biglaw, that extra 6% chance of biglaw translates as 21% more likely to get it. I'm not arguing that ND isn't a good school, just that if you're gunning for biglaw (as you originally stated) then that is a big difference.
On a separate note, are you looking at the most recent data?


How did you come up with that equation? Using your own equation you also would have a 46% chance of being underemployed coming out of Fordham compared to ND. To answer your question I'm not the OP I was just replying to a question. I have a question for you? Are you part of the Fordham Administration? How much money is Fordham paying you to pimp out their school? Are there any ethical standards about school administration pimping out their school in sites like this. On another thread you claim Fordham is a better choice than Vandy. That is absurd in so many levels. You are either a marketing adcom or a fordham troll.

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dingbat
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby dingbat » Fri May 11, 2012 1:41 pm

29%/35% = 21% better chances
I didn't do thè same math on unemployment but will accept your argument and will state clearly, for the record: if your biggest concern is unemployment, go to Notre Dame
If you're gunning for biglaw (and are only choosing between Fordham and ND) go to Fordham

As for the Vandy post, if you read it, I state that Vandy is a better school.
However, if the poster there definitely wants NY, Fordham feeds into that market and the employment prospects are not much worse, so that is a better option IF the poster definitely wants to be in NY
Read the context

I'm not an employee of Fordham, nor do I attend the school, FYI

answer23
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Re: ND or Fordham

Postby answer23 » Fri May 11, 2012 1:45 pm

dingbat wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=183053
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... Bd3c&gid=3

If you're at or above median, Fordham places better.
I'll concede (without looking at any data) that if you're below median, you're better off at ND


OP I would encourage you to look at unbiased data. 19.3% of Fordam's Grads are in JD preferred jobs vs 5.8% at Notre Dame. One thing you need to know about these JD preferred jobs is that a lot of BIGLAW hire JD Preferred grads from Fordham which may overinflated their real placement for the desired partner-track associate positions. (Warning LSAT Logic in next sentence) Just because Fordham places 35% in big law it does not mean all of them are associates. These positions could be for titles like "Special Assignment Legal Assistance" "Legal Analyst" "Special Litigation Support Associate" "associate specialist" these jobs are not desired and are often glorified paralegal positions. Some of them do the same task that a 22 year old paralegal does coming straight out of smith college. A while back the temp document review “lawyers” had a hard time with some 22 year old kid bossing them around. This was a huge blow to the ego of a 38 year old Brooklyn law grad to have a 22 year old kid with a BA in english being his supervisor and signing off on his timesheet. The solution was to hire JD's and have them supervise the temp JD reviewers so that the morale of the doc reviewers wouldn’t be so low. Since Brooklyn, St. john's, New York and Hofstra thought that Fordham is this great law school on the mountain top, the firms would hire Fordham grads to supervise the temp document reviewers. Hence the 19% placement of Fordham grads in JD preferred and the over 35 % into “BIGLAW”. You have to take into account other factors too.
78 % of Fordham Grads were employed at Full Time Jobs vs 90% at Notre Dame
84.4 % of ND grads had full time bar required jobs vs 68 % at Fordham
8.1 % of ND grads were Underemployed vs. 21.2 % at Fordham
The key facts that everyone wants to harp on is the large firm placement
29.7 % at ND vs 35.8 % at Fordham
The likelihood that Fordham’s large firm placement is overinflated is much higher than ND. First the JD preferred category should give you a clue. It’s a whopping 19.3 % at Fordham vs. 5.8 % at ND. How many of these JD preferred candidates are included in Fordham Large firm placement vs ND? Statistically it makes more sense for large firms in nyc to hire special assignment legal analyst assistants supervisors of document temporary reviewers from Fordham. Why would they fly some student half way around the country to do that? Second these position are not lawyer positions. They are case managers. They do the same thing that the Legal Assistants with a BA does. Some firms have been reluctant to called them Staff Attorneys because they might be confused with what a real staff attorney at a reputable agency like the red cross would do.
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