Cornell v. UTA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which one?

UT Austin (CoA:102k)
23
45%
Cornell (CoA:164k)
28
55%
 
Total votes: 51

jwahba
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Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 1:21 am

UPDATE: After careful consideration, I went with UT Austin. I realize that at the end of the day, I have more confidence in the government of the state of Texas than NY in the prospective years and after adjusting for Cost of living and income tax, it made my decision for me.

Thank you All for your input!


Very slight geographic preference for Texas
Medium to strong preference for Corporate/M&A/Financial Securities law
Medium preference for Biglaw
Medium debt averseness (borrowing to pay for almost all of law school)
Strong geographic preference for a lateral move later on back to NorCal

Also, should I take average hours studied per day into account? http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-2.html

Thanks in advance.
Last edited by jwahba on Thu May 17, 2012 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronck
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Bronck » Tue May 01, 2012 1:43 am

Cornell, better placement into biglaw + far better placement into NYC where the big M&A/securities stuff is done. That should trump your "very slight" geographic preference for Texas.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue May 01, 2012 2:26 am

Try to think more about your geographic preferences. If it's Texas (or the south), choose UT. If it's everywhere else, choose Cornell.

You probably should not take hours of studying into account. Location might swing things to a very, very minor extent. (And Austin>>>>>>Ithaca...unless you love the cold and gorges.)


ETA:
Bronck wrote:Cornell, better placement into biglaw + far better placement into NYC where the big M&A/securities stuff is done. That should trump your "very slight" geographic preference for Texas.


There is plenty of corporate work to be done in Dallas or Houston. It's not going to typically be NYC-level stuff, but it's not like either city is small market stuff. And you take home a ton more money working in Texas instead of NYC.

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Dale
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Dale » Tue May 01, 2012 3:00 am

Why are you not considering CCN or PBV?

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Bronck
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Bronck » Tue May 01, 2012 4:01 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:There is plenty of corporate work to be done in Dallas or Houston. It's not going to typically be NYC-level stuff, but it's not like either city is small market stuff. And you take home a ton more money working in Texas instead of NYC.


Oh agreed. I'm just saying that the majority of it is done in NYC.

That you do. I'm dead set on NYC (and the higher QoL I perceive it to have) over the higher take home pay in secondary markets, but that's something the OP has to figure out for him/herself.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 01, 2012 7:45 am

OP: You really should be able to formulate a strong preference for one or the other based on location & "quality of life" since COA difference is reasonable in this situation.

Your professional goals suggest that Cornell is the better option, while your regional preference leans toward Texas which is also the cheaper option.

Based on your prior posts & on your career objectives, Cornell seems to be the clear choice, in my opinion.

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KMaine
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby KMaine » Tue May 01, 2012 8:32 am

Poll is not coming out the way that I would expect. But, then again, Texas is a good school, and 60K is a nice chunk of change. Most people in this position choose Cornell. Other than cost, the only thing in your fact pattern that points to Texas is the very slight geographical preference. I think, for your career goals, Cornell is the way to go.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 10:27 am

Dale wrote:Why are you not considering CCN or PBV?


That would be because Columbia WLed and Chicago Penn and UCB dinged me.

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: You really should be able to formulate a strong preference for one or the other based on location & "quality of life" since COA difference is reasonable in this situation.


Honestly after weighing all the costs and benefits of Texas vs NY, I only came out of it with a slight preference towards Texas. I have a slight preference for higher take home pay, and nicer weather over the ability to eat Thai food at any hour of the day and cultural events within walking distance of wherever I live.

The other thing that I forgot to mention is that I am a bit of a bookworm who would be relatively unaffected by distractions. Based on the average hours studied per day (Cornell 5.97 vs. UTA 3.23), it seems as though that would make getting a higher rank at UT more attainable than in Cornell (assuming I study the same amount of time in both schools).

Finally, another thing that's making me lean towards Texas is the fact that the economy there is relatively strong. Its twice as expensive to rent a U-haul into Texas from NY or NorCal than out of Texas to NY or NorCal. There seems to be a mass exodus to the South which might be a factor in the medium term . http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/12/ ... ion-flows/

All that being said, you really can't argue with the number. NLJ 250 jobs in 2010: Cornell 38% vs. UTA 21%.

Any thoughts on the short term futures of the schools or the long term futures of the regions? I know UT ran into some dean problems this year.

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bk1
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby bk1 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:30 am

Average hours studied per day is a meaningless statistic. It's also a survey where people are likely over/under estimating.

If you want to do corporate work and only have a slight preference for TX the easy answer is Cornell (unless the cost difference is fairly large).

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue May 01, 2012 10:33 am

If biglaw anywhere is more important than working in Texas, Cornell.
If working in Texas is more important than biglaw, UT.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 10:36 am

bk1 wrote:Average hours studied per day is a meaningless statistic. It's also a survey where people are likely over/under estimating.


Do you think that the combination between Cornell students over estimating and UT students under estimating is 3 hours? At the very least, if people think that they are studying 6 hours a day vs 3 hours a day, it tells you something about their own perception of their quality of life. Am I wrong?

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bk1
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby bk1 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:45 am

jwahba wrote:Do you think that the combination between Cornell students over estimating and UT students under estimating is 3 hours? At the very least, if people think that they are studying 6 hours a day vs 3 hours a day, it tells you something about their own perception of their quality of life. Am I wrong?


Cornell students probably try to up it to keep up with what they perceive to be a competitive atmosphere. UT students likely do the opposite. But you said yourself you aren't affected by that sort of thing. That being said, everyone at both school is going balls to the wall come finals time and that's all that really matters. Spending a few hours a day reading cases or not doing that during the semester itself is not a big deal.

Also just noticed the CoA's. 60k is a pretty huge difference but I think I'd lean Cornell since you have a much better shot at corporate work.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 11:30 am

I've been hearing only from the pro-Cornellers. Is there nothing to recommend UT beyond the weather and fatter pay check at the end of the day?

woeisme
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby woeisme » Tue May 01, 2012 11:42 am

jwahba wrote:Very slight geographic preference for Texas


If you're from Texas and/or have ties there, Cornell. If not, Texas.

jwahba wrote:Medium to strong preference for Corporate/M&A/Financial Securities law


Cornell.

jwahba wrote:Medium preference for Biglaw


Cornell.

jwahba wrote:Medium debt averseness (borrowing to pay for almost all of law school)


Cornell.

jwahba wrote:Strong geographic preference for a lateral move later on back to NorCal


Cornell.

jwahba wrote:Also, should I take average hours studied per day into account? http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-2.html


Lol no.

jwahba wrote:Thanks in advance.


You're very welcome. Looks like Cornell for you. Enjoy (and congrats).

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FlanAl
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby FlanAl » Tue May 01, 2012 11:48 am

People here at Cornell dump a lot of time into the graded legal writing class. If texas does not have graded legal writing then that will probably account for a lot of the extra downtime. Also I've overheard way more people than I would expect talking about transferring from the beginning of the first semester (its definitely not a lot but more than I would have expected). When you have people busting their butts to try and leave you have to bust your butt to try and keep up. From what I can tell the 2L class didn't have this issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we log more library hours than other t14's on average.

I would have gone to texas had I gotten in. But this is for a lot of various personal reasons and going to texas probably would have set me up better to get a job. But I think for most people Cornell probably has the edge on jobs.

woeisme
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby woeisme » Tue May 01, 2012 11:50 am

jwahba wrote:I've been hearing only from the pro-Cornellers. Is there nothing to recommend UT beyond the weather and fatter pay check at the end of the day?


Not really. Cornell is objectively a better school with better exit opportunities and, for most people, is worth the extra 60k. I do know two people who picked UT over Cornell, but one had a LOOOT more money to UT and the other was dead-set on Texas midlaw and didn't care about Cornell's added geographical reach.

People are suggesting Cornell because your OP screams that that's the better choice. If you want people to suggest UT for you, you should edit your OP to emphasize your interest in being in Texas over everything else.

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bk1
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby bk1 » Tue May 01, 2012 11:54 am

jwahba wrote:I've been hearing only from the pro-Cornellers. Is there nothing to recommend UT beyond the weather and fatter pay check at the end of the day?


Much cheaper is probably the best reason to choose UT. But I don't think it's enough to warrant it over Cornell for you.

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FlanAl
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby FlanAl » Tue May 01, 2012 12:09 pm

jwahba wrote:I've been hearing only from the pro-Cornellers. Is there nothing to recommend UT beyond the weather and fatter pay check at the end of the day?


I go to cornell and if you are interested in working in Tex I'd say go to UT. I don't think cornell is worth an extra 60k to have NYC as fall back if what you really want is Tex. Given that you are interested in bay area work, I'd say Cornell is probably the better bet. But I'd also say that without ties you probably are not going to get bay area or Tex from Cornell.

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KMaine
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby KMaine » Tue May 01, 2012 12:17 pm

I go to Cornell and can say that there is not a day since 1L that I studied for over 3 hours, let alone 6. I do average about 6 hours of study time during finals week. 1L is a little different because I still didn't know how to read cases. I would say I averaged 4 hours a day that year. But who cares? You are here to learn and get a job; you do what you need to do to get by. If you aren't married and don't have kids, you still have an bunch of free time.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 12:24 pm

KMaine wrote:I go to Cornell and can say that there is not a day since 1L that I studied for over 3 hours, let alone 6. I do average about 6 hours of study time during finals week. 1L is a little different because I still didn't know how to read cases. I would say I averaged 4 hours a day that year. But who cares? You are here to learn and get a job; you do what you need to do to get by. If you aren't married and don't have kids, you still have an bunch of free time.


I wasn't mentioning it as a complaint about the amount of time studied but rather a comparative disadvantage for Cornell. Assuming I am enough of a bookworm to be relatively unaffected by how much the people around me study, Studying 4 hours and going to UT would put me above the surveyed average while the same amount in Cornell would put me considerably below that average, and if there is a reasonable correlation between hours studied relative to average and class rank, then it may be easier to get a higher rank in UT.

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FlanAl
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby FlanAl » Tue May 01, 2012 12:33 pm

unfortunately there isn't really that kind of correlation in law school. Also everyone ignores how shitty graded legal writing is and how much of a time suck it is. I'm too lazy to look up if UT has it or not but that should help you figure out why one school spends more time studying. I've heard from friends who clerked that kids from ungraded LRW schools had never even opened their bluebooks because they literally had to do nothing for the class.

Also I really feel like the amount of effort put in is really class year dependent. You could get a weird batch at UT next year where everyone there plans on transferring to UVA or something and is striving really hard and blowing up the curve for normal people who are happy where they are. (sorry for the rant)

Anyways I will also say that cornell has a lot of people who go here because it is the best school they got into. I feel like UT has a quite a few people who go there because it is the best school in Texas and that is where they want to be.

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KMaine
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby KMaine » Tue May 01, 2012 12:41 pm

jwahba wrote:
KMaine wrote:I go to Cornell and can say that there is not a day since 1L that I studied for over 3 hours, let alone 6. I do average about 6 hours of study time during finals week. 1L is a little different because I still didn't know how to read cases. I would say I averaged 4 hours a day that year. But who cares? You are here to learn and get a job; you do what you need to do to get by. If you aren't married and don't have kids, you still have an bunch of free time.


I wasn't mentioning it as a complaint about the amount of time studied but rather a comparative disadvantage for Cornell. Assuming I am enough of a bookworm to be relatively unaffected by how much the people around me study, Studying 4 hours and going to UT would put me above the surveyed average while the same amount in Cornell would put me considerably below that average, and if there is a reasonable correlation between hours studied relative to average and class rank, then it may be easier to get a higher rank in UT.


Yeah, fair enough. I don't think the correlation exists in any way. I wouldn't worry about it. I think that the only reason you should take TX, is if you think it is worth it to save $60K. Everything else points to Cornell.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 2:16 pm

Does anyone know why Cornell dropped on this list so dramatically?:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

55% to NLJ 250 to 38% seems like a little more than inter-year noise. (Just saw new LST numbers. Not looking good for UT).

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Nelson
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby Nelson » Tue May 01, 2012 2:20 pm

jwahba wrote:Does anyone know why Cornell dropped on this list so dramatically?:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

55% to NLJ 250 to 38% seems like a little more than inter-year noise. (Just saw new LST numbers. Not looking good for UT).

Year to year fluctuations in that list are worse than meaningless.

jwahba
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Re: Cornell v. UTA

Postby jwahba » Tue May 01, 2012 2:22 pm

Good to know.




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