T14 or UF for Florida market?

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flem
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby flem » Tue May 01, 2012 11:54 am

marlo45 wrote:
tflem, are you kidding? I've been to FL (Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Tampa, Plantation, N. Miami Beach) and i love the place! I'm tired of the overcrowded, overpriced NYC area. I think it would be nice to visit here once in a while, but i don't want to make it a home for me and my family.

Yeah, BruceWayne, i really hate the idea of living in a very expensive 2 bedroom condo in and around NYC when i could get a huge 5/6 bedroom house for the same or less in FL. My wife and i are originally from Jamaica (we grew up there) so i'm used to the tropical climate and the close proximity of beaches. Also, i like the relatively cheap flights between FL and Jamaica.


Just curious. Florida is definitely not for everyone.

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marlo45
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby marlo45 » Tue May 01, 2012 11:54 am

SunshineMagic wrote:
flem wrote:Follow up question: why Florida?

I'm from Florida. It's hot, flat and stupid. Florida blows, unless you're into old cranky bros, right wing Cubans and meth-heads.


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...and this :)

SunshineMagic
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby SunshineMagic » Tue May 01, 2012 11:54 am

flem wrote:Disneyworld is a giant con. Try again.

:D


Yea, I just added that for the Disney lovers. I think living in Orlando is really dumb or living anywhere in Florida that is not a beach community for that matter but I'm a beach person so... Orlando to me is as fake and plastic as vegas but not as fun.

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rayiner
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby rayiner » Tue May 01, 2012 12:13 pm

Don't assume going to UF will establish ties if you don't have them already. I go to NU and Chicago firms were skeptical, and Chicago is a lot less provincial than Florida. You could easily end up in a situation where Florida firms don't want you and other cities are not an option.

shepster
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby shepster » Tue May 01, 2012 8:40 pm

OP, there is some decent and a good amount of bad advice here. If you want to practice in the state of Florida, you should go to UF. Period. Miami, FSU, and Stetson are essentially regional schools (obvious caveat that if you do well at any of those three, you have more options).

If you had deep ties in the state of Florida a/o a UF undergrad degree, you could possibly get Florida biglaw from a T14. But given your total lack of Florida ties, that's not really an option. If you do callbacks with any large firm, they're going to ask you where you went to high school (and they'll expect a high school that their kids go to).

But, to go to UF over a T14 with money, you need to be very sure you want to stay in Florida. Magna at UF will get you some love in Atlanta, but to crack DC/NYC, you'll need at least magna + ties. It's a lot easier to come into Florida biglaw from NYC/DC biglaw. But to start out in Florida biglaw, you'll want a UF JD. FWIW, since you are married, your story that you want to stay in Florida will be taken more seriously if you go to the trouble of relocating from NYC to go to law school in-state.

Finally, 90k debt for UF is assuming you don't get in-state in Y2 or Y3. I know people at UF and FSU who have pulled in-state 2L and 3L despite starting as non-resident 1Ls.

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SleekFire
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby SleekFire » Tue May 01, 2012 8:50 pm

I'm graduating CLS this year and returning to Miami to work in a "biglaw" firm. I'd strongly advise you to go to the T-14. Uf is a great school, but you'll have an advantage at a T-14.

Although it'd be better if you had Florida ties, you can "make ties" by spending your 1L summer there (even if you have to work for very a small firm/government agency). Also, you're married. You can tell the firms (if it's true) that your wife is dead set on living in Miami. It's much more believable when you're married.


Goodluck!

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marlo45
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby marlo45 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:19 pm

Hey thank you all for the advice.

I'm going to be applying to all the T14 schools, UF, and Vandy, then i'll compare $$ offers. I'll see what i can do RE establishing ties in FL and i may even retake LSAT in hopes of HYS. If anyone else has any qualified opinions, please offer.

Shepster, i hear you on the UF.

Sleekfire, i assume you're from there?

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SleekFire
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby SleekFire » Wed May 02, 2012 7:37 pm

I am. :-)

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Light
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby Light » Wed May 02, 2012 8:29 pm

I'm from Florida and attend a T-14 and strongly considering working in Florida. I made a similar decision to this and I have to say: DO NOT GO TO UF!

For one, UF is not honest about their employment stats if you read them online. If you call their career services office and ask them specifically how many people are employed full time JD required positions the answer will be just around 80% - a good 5th of them are jobless. It would be a crime to put yourself in a place with employment stats this bad when you could easily go to a T-14. My numbers are nearly identical to yours and I'm at Chicago, and I'm a minority but probably not a URM. You would probably get into good T-14s with money being AA.

The Florida market is just tough but it's much better to have T-14 degree. You say you don't mind earning 60-70k but if you are working long hours wouldn't you rather be getting double? The big firms in Florida hire a lot from T-14s.

You also have to plan strategically, worst case scenario being bottom of the class at Florida will be extremely dangerous whereas being bottom of the class at a T-14 is probably not nearly as bad.

Moreover, you actually have connections to Florida. Your wife wants to move there and you have family/friends there. Don't think it's silly to mention that, those are perfectly legitimate reasons to show you want to move to Florida and I don't think it would hurt you from a T-14.

gulcregret
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby gulcregret » Thu May 03, 2012 11:06 am

ITT: Mostly poor advice from people who do not know anything about the legal market in Florida. Seriously.

I had major personal and professional ties to Florida. I worked and lived there for six years before law school. Worked in a local firm 1L summer. Was above median at GULC going into OCI and didn't even get callbacks at some of the big Florida firms. I got two offers for 2L SA positions, at regional firms.

Mostly because they simply were not hiring. This is due to the terrible, terrible prospects in FL BigLaw. Firms hire like 40 total SAs each year, maybe less now. Big Miami firms like Hogan and Weil are cutting back their offices in Miami. Akerman has not had a summer program for offices outside of Miami in like three years. Holland & Knight is overexposed and hardly hiring anyone. Greenberg was processing like 30% of BoAs foreclosures in the state for fixed prices, like $4,500 per case. Regional firms like Broad and Cassel, Gunster, and GrayRobinson mostly do work like bankruptcy, foreclosure, and family law. Business litigation focuses on construction contracts. There are some firms that do wealth planning if you think you would be into that. The legal market in Florida is very dependent on the Real Estate market, and that has not recovered in FL, yet.

The bottom line truth is, without ties to FL or serious grades from a T14, you won't get Florida from a school outside of FL. I can't speak to Vanderbilt in Florida because I have no idea about that situation. I can say that of the 50 lawyers I know in big and regional firms located in Florida, none of them went to Vandy. I will tell you that people with latin honors from T14 schools have trouble getting into FL firms. If you go to UF and get top 10 grades, you will have the ability to work anywhere in Florida. Law firms and the state government love UF. I got beat out by people at UF for positions at GT and HK because they had great grades at UF. Also, think about knowing spanish because mostly all the Miami firms will strongly prefer it. A majority of business people in S.Fla. consider spanish their primary language.

The best advice anyone can give you is this: go to the best school possible given your financial situation, do the math on what makes sense for your family, and do the absolute best that you can in law school. Take in all your options because you may think you love Florida now, but you have not lived there. I lived in the area that you claim to love and will tell you that living there is different than visiting for a few days, weeks, months, etc. There is hardly any culture or entertainment, a fair amount of shitty people (like anywhere), and you have to drive everywhere (traffic blows and drivers are phenomenally bad at driving). Who knows, maybe you go to UVA and get a job with a firm in DC and end up loving it there...

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BruceWayne
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri May 04, 2012 10:10 pm

gulcregret wrote: There is hardly any culture or entertainment, a fair amount of shitty people (like anywhere), and you have to drive everywhere (traffic blows and drivers are phenomenally bad at driving). Who knows, maybe you go to UVA and get a job with a firm in DC and end up loving it there...


Just as a general comment about liking places for living: the only people who say/feel this way about cities as big as somewhere like Miami etc. are people from NYC, LA, SF, DC and to a lesser extent Chicago. So as long as the OP is not from one of those places he'll be fine (and he actually mentioned that he lived in one of them and hated it). I really can't recall the last time I met someone who wasn't from one of those areas comment that a big city had hardly any "culture". And I"m not sure if people from those cities (other than LA) realize this but you basically have to "drive everywhere" in every major U.S city other than those. In fact, people from places outside of that list don't really even view having to drive to places as a negative. In addition, if you have a family (like the OP) having to drive places isn't a negative anyway because you don't want to take your wife and kids with you to a restaurant on the subway.

gulcregret
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby gulcregret » Tue May 08, 2012 10:06 am

I'm from a rural town in the midwest. Still feel there's no culture in South Florida. Lived there for five years. And driving is one thing; driving 100 miles/day is another. Have you lived in South Florida? Say you live out in Parkland (one of the best places to actually live in SFLA) and work in downtown Fort Lauderdale, or even worse, in Miami. You have to drive literally 2 hours/day and over 100 miles just to work and back each day. This does not include any form of entertainment you might find, 20 mile roundtrip to the movies, 40 miles to see a hockey game, 60 miles to art museum in FTL, another 100 miles to a baseball game. Driving that much sucks. If you have never lived in South Florida, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate what I'm saying when I say, you have to drive everywhere. No one thinks of it as a blessing.

SunshineMagic
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby SunshineMagic » Tue May 08, 2012 11:19 am

Just wanted to say "having to drive everywhere" in miami is a joke for angelenos so in the end it is all relative. Also please don't say miami has no culture just because you are fat and ugly and from the midwest... Miami is not for the fugly

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Tue May 08, 2012 12:22 pm

gulcregret wrote:I'm from a rural town in the midwest. Still feel there's no culture in South Florida. Lived there for five years. And driving is one thing; driving 100 miles/day is another. Have you lived in South Florida? Say you live out in Parkland (one of the best places to actually live in SFLA) and work in downtown Fort Lauderdale, or even worse, in Miami. You have to drive literally 2 hours/day and over 100 miles just to work and back each day. This does not include any form of entertainment you might find, 20 mile roundtrip to the movies, 40 miles to see a hockey game, 60 miles to art museum in FTL, another 100 miles to a baseball game. Driving that much sucks. If you have never lived in South Florida, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate what I'm saying when I say, you have to drive everywhere. No one thinks of it as a blessing.



This is not specific to Miami, this is specific to anyone who decides to live in a suburb just because it's "nice." If you don't like to drive 100 miles a day, move closer to the city or closer to where you work.

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Favre4Prez
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby Favre4Prez » Tue May 08, 2012 3:14 pm

gulcregret wrote:I'm from a rural town in the midwest. Still feel there's no culture in South Florida. Lived there for five years. And driving is one thing; driving 100 miles/day is another. Have you lived in South Florida? Say you live out in Parkland (one of the best places to actually live in SFLA) and work in downtown Fort Lauderdale, or even worse, in Miami. You have to drive literally 2 hours/day and over 100 miles just to work and back each day. This does not include any form of entertainment you might find, 20 mile roundtrip to the movies, 40 miles to see a hockey game, 60 miles to art museum in FTL, another 100 miles to a baseball game. Driving that much sucks. If you have never lived in South Florida, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate what I'm saying when I say, you have to drive everywhere. No one thinks of it as a blessing.


Just out of curiosity, what were the criteria for declaring Parkland one of the best places to actually live in SFLA?

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JustE
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby JustE » Tue May 08, 2012 3:15 pm

Didn't read most of this, but I'm an AA male w/ a 166 and an adjusted 3.21 GPA (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/maroonurm). If you apply early and make sure your application is tight, there's no reason for you to consider UF. You should be at a T-14 with substantial cash (I hope someone has said that already).

Be realistic and have safeties, but please don't set your aim too low.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue May 08, 2012 7:24 pm

rayiner wrote:Don't assume going to UF will establish ties if you don't have them already. I go to NU and Chicago firms were skeptical, and Chicago is a lot less provincial than Florida. You could easily end up in a situation where Florida firms don't want you and other cities are not an option.


You had options from NU and they were right to be skeptical. UF kids want to work in Florida--the small minority who don't are either too unrealistic to score the local interview in the first place, or have circumstansial employment plans out of state that won't effect OP's purposeful, in-state job hunt.

jonjon1324
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby jonjon1324 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:20 am

What do you guys mean by "ties to FL"?

I want to eventually live in Florida when practicing law, but I also wanna go up north for law school because I'm tired of Florida (I've lived here basically all my life and currently go to UF) and I've always wanted to live in the north for a little while. So if I want to live and work here, I'm better off just going to UF (or Vandy?) as opposed to maybe a higher ranked T14 in the north?

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flem
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby flem » Wed May 09, 2012 8:20 am

jonjon1324 wrote:What do you guys mean by "ties to FL"?

I want to eventually live in Florida when practicing law, but I also wanna go up north for law school because I'm tired of Florida (I've lived here basically all my life and currently go to UF) and I've always wanted to live in the north for a little while. So if I want to live and work here, I'm better off just going to UF (or Vandy?) as opposed to maybe a higher ranked T14 in the north?


Ties meaning you grew up there, have family there, something like that. Basically employers want to see a reason for why you'd stick around.

jonjon1324
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby jonjon1324 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:41 pm

flem wrote:
jonjon1324 wrote:What do you guys mean by "ties to FL"?

I want to eventually live in Florida when practicing law, but I also wanna go up north for law school because I'm tired of Florida (I've lived here basically all my life and currently go to UF) and I've always wanted to live in the north for a little while. So if I want to live and work here, I'm better off just going to UF (or Vandy?) as opposed to maybe a higher ranked T14 in the north?


Ties meaning you grew up there, have family there, something like that. Basically employers want to see a reason for why you'd stick around.


Ah, okay. So since I grew up here, I'd be fine leaving for a few years to go to law school and then coming back?

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flem
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby flem » Wed May 09, 2012 12:53 pm

jonjon1324 wrote:
Ah, okay. So since I grew up here, I'd be fine leaving for a few years to go to law school and then coming back?


That depends entirely on the school. For instance, it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to go to Brooklyn law school and come back. But if you went to a T14/Texas/Vandy you'd be good.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed May 09, 2012 1:05 pm

JustE wrote:Didn't read most of this, but I'm an AA male w/ a 166 and an adjusted 3.21 GPA (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/maroonurm). If you apply early and make sure your application is tight, there's no reason for you to consider UF. You should be at a T-14 with substantial cash (I hope someone has said that already).

Be realistic and have safeties, but please don't set your aim too low.



This is just more of the TLS sickness. What if.. OP is.. different than you?

Wha?

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flem
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby flem » Wed May 09, 2012 1:07 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

This is just more of the TLS sickness. What if.. OP is.. different than you?

Wha?



We're not talking about UF at scholarship or T14 at sticker options - dude has stats that's going to get him serious money at a T14 that opens up many, MANY more options than UF ever would.

He'd be unequivocally and undeniably selling himself short.

jonjon1324
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby jonjon1324 » Wed May 09, 2012 1:13 pm

flem wrote:
jonjon1324 wrote:
Ah, okay. So since I grew up here, I'd be fine leaving for a few years to go to law school and then coming back?


That depends entirely on the school. For instance, it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to go to Brooklyn law school and come back. But if you went to a T14/Texas/Vandy you'd be good.


Ah, that's good to hear.

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JustE
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Re: T14 or UF for Florida market?

Postby JustE » Wed May 09, 2012 2:45 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
JustE wrote:Didn't read most of this, but I'm an AA male w/ a 166 and an adjusted 3.21 GPA (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/maroonurm). If you apply early and make sure your application is tight, there's no reason for you to consider UF. You should be at a T-14 with substantial cash (I hope someone has said that already).

Be realistic and have safeties, but please don't set your aim too low.



This is just more of the TLS sickness. What if.. OP is.. different than you?

Wha?


Look dude, I'm not sure what this TLS sickness is, but I came on this site aiming way too low. I owe everything I currently have to the people up here. OP has already confirmed the kind of URM his is. Granted, I have several other things that set me apart (work/leadership/service experience), but with his stats it's T14 w/ cash or bust. That's really all there is to it. I wouldn't be surprised if he cracked H.




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