Need advice on choosing a T4 (with updates)

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xinglei
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Need advice on choosing a T4 (with updates)

Postby xinglei » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:21 pm

Alright guys, I know I suck and I know normally I should wait for a year and retake the LSAT, but now I need to choose a school from Tier 4, so please help me. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

So far I have been admitted to:
Roger Williams University School of Law ($8000 1st year)
Phoenix Law ($18000 for 3 years)
Charlotte School of Law (with $4000)
Mississippi College School of Law‏
Florida Coastal School of Law
Valparaiso Law

Still waiting for answer from:
New York Law School
Hamline Law
Golden Gate University
University of Detroit Mercy School of Law

Career goals: In house legal consultant for IT or retail related company (Apple, Best Buy), or investment/legal consultant for Chinese company in North America. (ie, helping Chinese firms IPO in the US)

My bio: Chinese Canadian, fluent in Chinese. Home town: Vancouver, BC
Last edited by xinglei on Thu May 03, 2012 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kwais
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby kwais » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:25 pm

rethink the transfer thing. rethink the retake. what are your goals?

llachans
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby llachans » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:29 pm

I'd say retake and I'm not a T-14 or bust person. I will be going to a T3 myself, but it has its legal market cornered and I'll only be paying 7k/year.

You need to get a substantial scholarship out of one of those schools. Have you tried negotiating with them? If you can't minimize your total debt to your estimated first year's salary, I would re-think law school.

Don't count on transferring out either. Only go to a school that you'd be happy graduating from. Don't do any CA T4 because the legal market is saturated enough as it is. If you want to get back to CA/WA, why would you go to a T4 in the midwest? That makes no sense. Did you apply to Gonzaga?

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quiver
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby quiver » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:33 pm

llachans wrote:Don't count on transferring out either. Only go to a school that you'd be happy graduating from. Don't do any CA T4 because the legal market is saturated enough as it is. If you want to get back to CA/WA, why would you go to a T4 in the midwest? That makes no sense.
This is all correct. Never bank on transferring. I don't usually advocate retaking but attending any of the schools on your list at sticker is pretty ill advised to say the least.

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rayiner
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:51 pm

xinglei wrote:Alright guys, I know I suck and I know normally I should wait for a year and retake the LSAT, but now I need to choose a school from Tier 4, so please help me. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

So far I have been admitted to:
Charlotte School of Law (with $4000)
Mississippi College School of Law‏
Florida Coastal School of Law
Valparaiso Law

Still waiting for answer from:
Brooklyn Law School‏
Roger Williams University School of Law.
New York Law School
Hamline Law
Golden Gate University
Phoenix Law
University of Detroit Mercy School of Law

My plan is to study my ass off in the first year and transfer into a decent law school in Washington State or California.

Thank you all very much


Why can't you study your ass off and get into a decent school off the bat?

We don't say "retake" to be mean. We say it because the cost/payoff of studying for the LSAT is way higher than the cost/payoff of studying harder during 1L to transfer. For a fraction of the amount of work you need to put in to transfer from a T4 to a T1, you could get a higher score on the LSAT and matriculate at the T1 in the first place, for much less overall risk. It's the objectively rational thing to do.

What is pushing you to go to school this year? Is it parents? Don't listen to your parents, they don't know anything. Listen to us. We won't judge you for having to take a mulligan on the LSAT.

SunshineMagic
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby SunshineMagic » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:44 pm

flame

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:48 pm

xinglei wrote:My plan is to study my ass off in the first year and transfer into a decent law school in Washington State or California.

The real problem with this is that, even if you do study your ass off, you're still unlikely to make it to top 5-10%, which is roughly what you would need to transfer to a decent school. Law school grades depend too much on arbitrary factors, and factors outside your control (like skills you can't easily improve during 1L year).

Going to any of these schools is an awful, awful idea, but assuming we can't change your mind about that: what state are you from? If you would be paying a significant amount of money for one of these schools, you should at least go to the school in the same state/area as you.

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$peppercorn
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby $peppercorn » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:56 pm

SunshineMagic wrote:flame

+1

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fanmingrui
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby fanmingrui » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:58 pm

SunshineMagic wrote:flame

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:03 pm

$peppercorn wrote:
SunshineMagic wrote:flame

+1

Do you think this person is a flame simply because he/she is considering attending a t4 school? I agree that is beyond reason and completely reckless, but apparently thousands of people do it every year. I think we need more evidence before calling "flame."

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hookem7
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby hookem7 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:06 pm

It's advice with a c, unless youre British or something

presidentk1
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby presidentk1 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:42 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
$peppercorn wrote:
SunshineMagic wrote:flame

+1

Do you think this person is a flame simply because he/she is considering attending a t4 school? I agree that is beyond reason and completely reckless, but apparently thousands of people do it every year. I think we need more evidence before calling "flame."


thats exactly why they think its a flame

theres nothing wrong with going to a t4

its the INDIVIDUAL not the SCHOOL that matters

i bet there are people out there who went to schools with horrid reps but have better, higher paying jobs than some t14 grads

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Lwoods
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby Lwoods » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:09 pm

presidentk1 wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Do you think this person is a flame simply because he/she is considering attending a t4 school? I agree that is beyond reason and completely reckless, but apparently thousands of people do it every year. I think we need more evidence before calling "flame."


thats exactly why they think its a flame

theres nothing wrong with going to a t4

its the INDIVIDUAL not the SCHOOL that matters

i bet there are people out there who went to schools with horrid reps but have better, higher paying jobs than some t14 grads


...notsureifsrs, but on the off chance OP is not a flame...

There are rules and there are exceptions. There are plenty of TTTT graduates who make a shit ton of money. Typically those I've come across are personal injury plaintiff attorneys in tiny markets with incredible marketing skills.
I have a few friends and acquaintances in my current city who graduated from the local TTTT...one is in small law, one is in biglaw, and one is working in real estate/not using his JD. It's not that it's impossible to succeed from those schools (by any reasonable definition of success) but rather that it is an extremely steep uphill battle. And for as many success stories, there are dozens (hundreds?) of horror stories. A kid I went to high school with (who, despite his choice of law school, is quite smart) attended one of the TTTTs OP has been admitted to and struggles at a day job in order to pay for his CLEs while looking for a legal job over a year since he graduated.

Meanwhile, those who go to more prestigious schools have many more opportunities. Some still fuck it up. Some still have awful personalities. Some still burn out. Yes, all of these things are true. But a far greater proportion of those students get to do what they actually want to do with their degrees.

It makes much more sense to place one's time, money, and effort into destroying the LSAT than it is to bank on killing it 1L year...particularly at a TTTT where the students typically have to fight to even stay in school and many are trying to claw their way to the top to meet ridiculous scholarship stipulations.

SunshineMagic
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby SunshineMagic » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:16 pm

presidentk1 wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:
$peppercorn wrote:
SunshineMagic wrote:flame

+1

Do you think this person is a flame simply because he/she is considering attending a t4 school? I agree that is beyond reason and completely reckless, but apparently thousands of people do it every year. I think we need more evidence before calling "flame."


thats exactly why they think its a flame

theres nothing wrong with going to a t4

its the INDIVIDUAL not the SCHOOL that matters

i bet there are people out there who went to schools with horrid reps but have better, higher paying jobs than some t14 grads


flame flame

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aekea
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby aekea » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:23 pm

presidentk1 wrote:
thats exactly why they think its a flame

theres nothing wrong with going to a t4

I'm not sure how you're defining wrong, but I think there's something wrong with taking out $200k in non-dischargeable debt to spend three years getting a professional degree that won't get you a job. Nobody has to attend a t4. It's a pretty irresponsible gamble for the majority of people that do it, so I think you could say it's wrong.

presidentk1 wrote:its the INDIVIDUAL not the SCHOOL that matters

This is not true.
presidentk1 wrote:i bet there are people out there who went to schools with horrid reps but have better, higher paying jobs than some t14 grads

I bet there are some high school drop-outs who are making more money than some Harvard grads. Doesn't mean dropping out of high school is good idea.

presidentk1
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby presidentk1 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:52 pm

i agree that it isn't wise to pay sticker for a TTTT

what i meant by there's nothing wrong with going to a TTTT is that there are certain instances where going to a TTTT is ok

like if your options are going to a TTTT for free vs paying in full for a TTT/TT

and it is all about the individual, i honestly think its sad if you believe its all about the school.
while going to a higher ranked school will certainly give you an advantage, that isn't what its all about

one could go to a t14, finish in the top 10% of their class, and then just fall apart when its time for the real thing

the flip-side is also true, one could go to a TTTT, but then quickly establish him/herself as a skilled attorney and land that BIGLAW job that everyone on TLS gets hard over

..bottom line

theres a lot more to the equation than just the school you went to

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aekea
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby aekea » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:46 pm

presidentk1 wrote:i agree that it isn't wise to pay sticker for a TTTT

what i meant by there's nothing wrong with going to a TTTT is that there are certain instances where going to a TTTT is ok

like if your options are going to a TTTT for free vs paying in full for a TTT/TT

I agree with you that there are some instances where going to a TTTT is ok. Some people have guaranteed jobs when they graduate that require a JD and for them, it really might not matter where they go to school.

But, just because your only options for law school are a TTT at sticker and a t4 for free, doesn't mean that going to the t4 is a good decision. For most people, neither of those are smart choices. Almost everyone in that situation is going to be better off not going to law school at all, or waiting and reapplying later on.

presidentk1 wrote:and it is all about the individual, i honestly think its sad if you believe its all about the school.
while going to a higher ranked school will certainly give you an advantage, that isn't what its all about

one could go to a t14, finish in the top 10% of their class, and then just fall apart when its time for the real thing

the flip-side is also true, one could go to a TTTT, but then quickly establish him/herself as a skilled attorney and land that BIGLAW job that everyone on TLS gets hard over

..bottom line

theres a lot more to the equation than just the school you went to

How do i know it's all about the school and not the individual? (Besides all of the statistical evidence.) Because even when you're trying to argue the opposite, you're conceding the extreme importance of the school. You're telling me someone at a t14 school COULD fall apart even though they graduate at the top of their class while someone at a TTTT COULD get a BIGLAW job. You're recognizing that both are possible, but not likely. There are always going to be people graduating at t4 schools who end up doing well. There will always be people at great schools who do poorly. If we assume that the success and failure of those individuals is due to their individual qualities (natural ability in law school, work ethic, personality, work experience, connections, luck etc.) then yes the individual is important. But if those are qualities that are already set, before you start law school, then when you really think about it, the school is the only thing that matters because it's the only thing you can adjust. Someone with your identical skills at a better school is always going to do better. That's why the school matters. It's impossible to know how you're going to perform in law school. Not only is it impossible to accurately evaluate your own abilities (psychologically, basically everyone is bad at this), but you have no idea what the rest of your class is going to be like so you are completely unable to determine your abilities relative to them. The individual is important to success, but wholly unrelated to making a smart decision as to where to go to law school.

Edit: Dyslexic moment. Fixed for clarity
Last edited by aekea on Tue May 01, 2012 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

presidentk1
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby presidentk1 » Tue May 01, 2012 1:21 am

i feel that we agree on a lot of things but our basic attitudes differ in regards to the boost one gets from attending certain schools
i concede to the fact that the statistical data clearly shows a trend in that the higher the rank, the greater the probability of gaining favorable employment

however, i have a problem with people taking the school you went to, and then automatically assign certain characteristics to that individual based solely on where they went to school.

just because you went to a certain school, does not mean you are going to make a good attorney, and just because you went to another type of school, doesnt mean you aren't as qualified as those who went to a higher ranked school.

Lets take the following example, person A applies to a t14 and gets admitted, at sticker
same person also applied to a TT and was admitted w/ a full scholly, they elect to take the money

now, come employment time, are we to assume that this individual is not as competitive a candidate as another who went to the very same t14 school person A was admitted to?
you and I both know that you learn the exact same shit at a T14 law school as u do at a TTTT, so what's the difference really.

Please explain to me how person A would be more beneficial to a firm had he paid to go to the t14 rather than attend a TT for free.

all i'm saying is that given all the factors that determine where an individual goes to law school (one big one being straight up luck), why do we weigh so heavily something as stupid as where you went to school when we can gain more useful information by judging an individual based on his/her skills and talents rather than just looking at a resume, seeing that the school listed isnt a t14 and then brushing that person aside

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bceagles182
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby bceagles182 » Tue May 01, 2012 1:32 am

presidentk1 wrote:i feel that we agree on a lot of things but our basic attitudes differ in regards to the boost one gets from attending certain schools
i concede to the fact that the statistical data clearly shows a trend in that the higher the rank, the greater the probability of gaining favorable employment

however, i have a problem with people taking the school you went to, and then automatically assign certain characteristics to that individual based solely on where they went to school.

just because you went to a certain school, does not mean you are going to make a good attorney, and just because you went to another type of school, doesnt mean you aren't as qualified as those who went to a higher ranked school.

Lets take the following example, person A applies to a t14 and gets admitted, at sticker
same person also applied to a TT and was admitted w/ a full scholly, they elect to take the money

now, come employment time, are we to assume that this individual is not as competitive a candidate as another who went to the very same t14 school person A was admitted to?
you and I both know that you learn the exact same shit at a T14 law school as u do at a TTTT, so what's the difference really.

Please explain to me how person A would be more beneficial to a firm had he paid to go to the t14 rather than attend a TT for free.

all i'm saying is that given all the factors that determine where an individual goes to law school (one big one being straight up luck), why do we weigh so heavily something as stupid as where you went to school when we can gain more useful information by judging an individual based on his/her skills and talents rather than just looking at a resume, seeing that the school listed isnt a t14 and then brushing that person aside



OP is very clearly a flame. But this guy seems serious, so I will bite.

It is entirely irrelevant whether the person who went to the TT for free or the person who went to the T14 will (a) get a better education, or (b) be a better lawyer. In fact, I agree with you that the school does not necessarily dictate the answer to either of those inquiries. The problem is that neither of those can be objectively measured, so there's no point in considering them when choosing a school.

On the other hand, all other things equal, the person who went to the T14 is more likely to get a job. This is a fact, backed by statistic measures. Consequently, it is by far the most important factor in choosing which school to attend.

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aekea
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby aekea » Tue May 01, 2012 1:38 am

I'm not making any claims about how much we should value different attorneys. What you or I believe makes no difference. Hiring partners are the only people who get a say in what matters when determining the value an attorney will add to their firms. They care about prestige. You have to make decisions about law school with that in mind, because that's the reality you'll face when you're looking for a job.

timbs4339
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 01, 2012 2:48 am

presidentk1 wrote:i feel that we agree on a lot of things but our basic attitudes differ in regards to the boost one gets from attending certain schools
i concede to the fact that the statistical data clearly shows a trend in that the higher the rank, the greater the probability of gaining favorable employment

however, i have a problem with people taking the school you went to, and then automatically assign certain characteristics to that individual based solely on where they went to school.

just because you went to a certain school, does not mean you are going to make a good attorney, and just because you went to another type of school, doesnt mean you aren't as qualified as those who went to a higher ranked school.

Lets take the following example, person A applies to a t14 and gets admitted, at sticker
same person also applied to a TT and was admitted w/ a full scholly, they elect to take the money

now, come employment time, are we to assume that this individual is not as competitive a candidate as another who went to the very same t14 school person A was admitted to?
you and I both know that you learn the exact same shit at a T14 law school as u do at a TTTT, so what's the difference really.

Please explain to me how person A would be more beneficial to a firm had he paid to go to the t14 rather than attend a TT for free.

all i'm saying is that given all the factors that determine where an individual goes to law school (one big one being straight up luck), why do we weigh so heavily something as stupid as where you went to school when we can gain more useful information by judging an individual based on his/her skills and talents rather than just looking at a resume, seeing that the school listed isnt a t14 and then brushing that person aside


The fact that someone gets into a T14 school says something about that individual's work ethic and intelligence. Yeah, there can be 10,000 reasons why the T4 grad might make a better attorney than the T14 grad. But when push came to shove, the T14 grad did better. And that's what firms want, the conservative choice. The conservative choice is someone who has successfully jumped through hoops their entire life (LSAT/GPA/1L grades).

OP: Unless somebody is holding a gun to your head and will pull the trigger if you don't enroll in law school next year, retake.

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rayiner
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby rayiner » Tue May 01, 2012 3:09 am

presidentk1 wrote:Lets take the following example, person A applies to a t14 and gets admitted, at sticker
same person also applied to a TT and was admitted w/ a full scholly, they elect to take the money

now, come employment time, are we to assume that this individual is not as competitive a candidate as another who went to the very same t14 school person A was admitted to?


Come employment time, employer is faced with a bunch of people at a TT, 97% of whom did not get into a T14 (TT's don't give out a lot of full rides, they don't have the endowments to do so), and a bunch of people at a T14, 97% of whom could have gotten a full ride to a TT. The employer doesn't know who got scholarships where--what he does know is that for the majority of candidates at any school, that school was the best one they got into.

Employers play a statistical game. They assign tremendous weight to the T14 because they have nothing else to go on (they can't evaluate the legal skills and talent of so many candidates), so they might as well fill their class with the people whose law schools will look good on their firm bio.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby reasonable_man » Tue May 01, 2012 8:14 am

First, I suspect a flame. But I'll bite anyway.

You are essentially doing the TTT world tour with your applications. Detroit, NYC, Rhode Island???? Where do you want to practice? None of these schools has a reach beyond 60 miles of their campuses.

I am not a T14 or bust type of person. I graduated from a TTT and have a very good job. However, I am a bit of an exceptions because: i) I graduated in 2008, i.e. the last year law grads had a real shot at employment; ii) I had substantive legal experience and strong connections in the NYC legal market BEFORE I started LS; and iii) I was fortunate enought to be able to gain even more experience during LS, while also having a mid-law job over both summers and an offer in place well before graduation. These things placed me into a group of about 7 kids in my graduating class. Not 7%, 7 students. Things did not work out so well for many of the others.

I would think long and hard about what you are doing.

xinglei
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby xinglei » Thu May 03, 2012 8:22 pm

kwais wrote:rethink the transfer thing. rethink the retake. what are your goals?

In house legal consultant for IT or retail related company (Apple, Best Buy), or investment/legal consultant for Chinese company in North America. (ie, helping Chinese firms IPO in the US)

rayiner wrote:What is pushing you to go to school this year? Is it parents?

Yea, it is my parents, there's not much I can do about it.

SunshineMagic wrote:flame

It is not a flame.

hookem7 wrote:It's advice with a c, unless youre British or something

Fixed, thanks.

presidentk1 wrote:i agree that it isn't wise to pay sticker for a TTTT

what i meant by there's nothing wrong with going to a TTTT is that there are certain instances where going to a TTTT is ok

like if your options are going to a TTTT for free vs paying in full for a TTT/TT

My family is finally helping me on law school, so I'm not that worried about my debt upon graduation.

xinglei
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Re: Need advise on choosing a T4

Postby xinglei » Thu May 03, 2012 8:29 pm

timbs4339 wrote:OP: Unless somebody is holding a gun to your head and will pull the trigger if you don't enroll in law school next year, retake.

I know clearly this is what normally people would do, but let's say, hypothetically, If I were to choose a school from the list above, which one is the best choice?

reasonable_man wrote:First, I suspect a flame. But I'll bite anyway.

You are essentially doing the TTT world tour with your applications. Detroit, NYC, Rhode Island???? Where do you want to practice? None of these schools has a reach beyond 60 miles of their campuses.

I would think long and hard about what you are doing.


I don't really have any preference on the location. I'm from China so every place is new to me.




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