Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

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Ludo!
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:49 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:33% is too much to take ND for even though U of I is on the way down.

It's more an issue of the fact that ND isn't amazing.


Nobody can really say Illinois is 'on the way down'. It went down in the rankings this year because of the shit medians but it didn't somehow become a worse law school because of the scandal. I think there may be some long term impact in terms of not being able to attract as many good applicants (the amount of should I go to Illinois threads this year is astounding and I think the scandal has a lot to do with it) but if that's the case it will take years for hiring to reflect that.

it's not the rankings i'm talking about. they're equal there (relatively).

it is the scandal, and how firms perceive them now.


Lol no

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givemea170
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:55 pm

illini22 wrote:Did you visit ND? It can also come down to personal choice. I had slightly more money from ND than from Illinois (I applied to like 30 schools, so i have experience with almost every Midwest school), I chose Illinois because I personally just loved the people here, I really liked ND law school building more, but, its just a building...

If you havent visit ND, do so. But whoever tells you that ND and Illinois are not peer school is either bias or delusional. ND edges illinois in "national placement" but if you are going to start your career in Chicago, I say Illinois. For long term, no one will care in 5 years what school you went to, they will care what firm you went to. People actually become "alumni" of a firm and you have a "class of 20xx" from the firm the same way you do in law school. So if 5 years down the line you want to move out of Chicago, whether you went to Illinois or ND will make little if any difference.

Parents footing the bill is awesome, but like someone said, unless they are swimming in money, it is still money.... Shit, 40k buys you a pretty nice car, imagine throwing that off a building for "fucks sake"; still hurts. People talk here about money as if it was nothing.


I didn't say money didn't matter. Luckily, due to my individual situation, it isn't the MOST important factor. Otherwise I'd be going to UTK for dirt cheap b/c it is instate.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby illini22 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:57 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:33% is too much to take ND for even though U of I is on the way down.

It's more an issue of the fact that ND isn't amazing.


Nobody can really say Illinois is 'on the way down'. It went down in the rankings this year because of the shit medians but it didn't somehow become a worse law school because of the scandal. I think there may be some long term impact in terms of not being able to attract as many good applicants (the amount of should I go to Illinois threads this year is astounding and I think the scandal has a lot to do with it) but if that's the case it will take years for hiring to reflect that.

it's not the rankings i'm talking about. they're equal there (relatively).

it is the scandal, and how firms perceive them now.


I agree we are "on the way down" from being a top 10 school, to top 20, to now, lolz... The whole "scandal" issue, if you read the report, was because they had a "plan" lolz for planning ability, to return Illinois to a solid top 20 ranking (the schools was 15-19 for most of the 80s, 90s,), the plan was supposed to be to shrink the class and offer tons of money to raise the numbers. They overshoot, the 168 median didnt come true, and the dean who shall not be mentioned went into freakout and fudged the numbers.

But FYI, the school just announced the conclusion of $50 million dollars in donations... How much will this matter? we are yet to see.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby illini22 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:02 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:33% is too much to take ND for even though U of I is on the way down.

It's more an issue of the fact that ND isn't amazing.


Nobody can really say Illinois is 'on the way down'. It went down in the rankings this year because of the shit medians but it didn't somehow become a worse law school because of the scandal. I think there may be some long term impact in terms of not being able to attract as many good applicants (the amount of should I go to Illinois threads this year is astounding and I think the scandal has a lot to do with it) but if that's the case it will take years for hiring to reflect that.

it's not the rankings i'm talking about. they're equal there (relatively).

it is the scandal, and how firms perceive them now.


Lol no


Hahah, love the people who just "say what comes to their mind" without any real basis, great way of thinking for future lawyers. If anything, OCI will likely be somewhat larger next year than the previous (thanks to the new career service people, who went from 2 people to five and they fired that incompetent director). Some of the firms are already signed up and unless they are rushing to sign up for OCI, by this time last year there were less firms had signed up. And I see new names that did not come last year.

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Ludo!
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:08 pm

illini22 wrote:
Hahah, love the people who just "say what comes to their mind" without any real basis, great way of thinking for future lawyers. If anything, OCI will likely be somewhat larger next year than the previous (thanks to the new career service people, who went from 2 people to five and they fired that incompetent director). Some of the firms are already signed up and unless they are rushing to sign up for OCI, by this time last year there were less firms had signed up. And I see new names that did not come last year.


I don't think he's a future lawyer, he runs a prep company.

But for anyone else reading - the idea that firms think anything different about Illinois right now is absurd and obviously just based on conjecture. The scandal broke while I and a lot of my friends were still doing callbacks and it didn't affect offers at all. None of the associates or partners I talked to thought anything negative about Illinois students or Illinois as a school in general because of it. Alums at these firms are still looking to hire Illinois students, they're still coming to OCI. As far as I know the 1l class didn't have any trouble getting work for the summer. The real test will be this year's OCI and I fully admit I could be wrong and you will see some sort of mass exodus of firms from our OCI but there has been literally no indication of that happening.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:20 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
illini22 wrote:
Hahah, love the people who just "say what comes to their mind" without any real basis, great way of thinking for future lawyers. If anything, OCI will likely be somewhat larger next year than the previous (thanks to the new career service people, who went from 2 people to five and they fired that incompetent director). Some of the firms are already signed up and unless they are rushing to sign up for OCI, by this time last year there were less firms had signed up. And I see new names that did not come last year.


I don't think he's a future lawyer, he runs a prep company.

But for anyone else reading - the idea that firms think anything different about Illinois right now is absurd and obviously just based on conjecture. The scandal broke while I and a lot of my friends were still doing callbacks and it didn't affect offers at all. None of the associates or partners I talked to thought anything negative about Illinois students or Illinois as a school in general because of it. Alums at these firms are still looking to hire Illinois students, they're still coming to OCI. As far as I know the 1l class didn't have any trouble getting work for the summer. The real test will be this year's OCI and I fully admit I could be wrong and you will see some sort of mass exodus of firms from our OCI but there has been literally no indication of that happening.


I guess some might say ND is the safe choice then if there is even a chance that future prospects are hurt. My Dad actually seemed pretty excited when I told him about Notre Dame accepting me in today. But that may just be because he is a ND football fan and grew up Catholic. Money is important, but I"m confident he would prefer I pick the better choice regardless of the money. He'd probably push hard for Northwestern if they ever let me in.

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Ludo!
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:23 pm

I would say the negligible chance that Illinois takes some kind of long term hit is not worth taking into account, especially when we're talking about a significant money difference between the two.

ed- ND definitely has better lay prestige than Illinois though so that might be something you want to take into account. Just know that it doesn't translate into increased job prospects

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givemea170
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:I would say the negligible chance that Illinois takes some kind of long term hit is not worth taking into account, especially when we're talking about a significant money difference between the two.

ed- ND definitely has better lay prestige than Illinois though so that might be something you want to take into account. Just know that it doesn't translate into increased job prospects


Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming you'd go to Illinois in my position?

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Ludo!
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:30 pm

givemea170 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I would say the negligible chance that Illinois takes some kind of long term hit is not worth taking into account, especially when we're talking about a significant money difference between the two.

ed- ND definitely has better lay prestige than Illinois though so that might be something you want to take into account. Just know that it doesn't translate into increased job prospects


Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming you'd go to Illinois in my position?


Haha yes. I know I'm not exactly an unbiased viewpoint but I assure you if the money was reversed I would say go to ND

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby blurbz » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:37 pm

Same as Ludo--Probably made it clear what my viewpoint is in the other thread. Illinois and ND are the definition of peers. Even if you're not paying for it, your parents are and that's not an insignificant amount of money to throw at identical placement.

Also: Don't listen to people like AffordablePrep--they've clearly got no idea what they're talking about.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:25 pm

blurbz wrote:Same as Ludo--Probably made it clear what my viewpoint is in the other thread. Illinois and ND are the definition of peers. Even if you're not paying for it, your parents are and that's not an insignificant amount of money to throw at identical placement.

Also: Don't listen to people like AffordablePrep--they've clearly got no idea what they're talking about.


I think they are peers. The only thing I'm worried about is the ignorant perception that ND is better than UIUC... but then again... people making hiring decisions wouldn't be ignorant, so an irrelevant concern probably.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby AffordablePrep » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:37 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
illini22 wrote:
Hahah, love the people who just "say what comes to their mind" without any real basis, great way of thinking for future lawyers. If anything, OCI will likely be somewhat larger next year than the previous (thanks to the new career service people, who went from 2 people to five and they fired that incompetent director). Some of the firms are already signed up and unless they are rushing to sign up for OCI, by this time last year there were less firms had signed up. And I see new names that did not come last year.


I don't think he's a future lawyer, he runs a prep company.

But for anyone else reading - the idea that firms think anything different about Illinois right now is absurd and obviously just based on conjecture. The scandal broke while I and a lot of my friends were still doing callbacks and it didn't affect offers at all. None of the associates or partners I talked to thought anything negative about Illinois students or Illinois as a school in general because of it. Alums at these firms are still looking to hire Illinois students, they're still coming to OCI. As far as I know the 1l class didn't have any trouble getting work for the summer. The real test will be this year's OCI and I fully admit I could be wrong and you will see some sort of mass exodus of firms from our OCI but there has been literally no indication of that happening.

It obviously wouldn't influence current students in interviews or callbacks. It's not their fault that it just so happened the dean they didn't hire or had no responsibility for is a liar, but it does leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth about the school at least compared to Notre Dame. You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND, and frankly, how much were the numbers fudged? These schools basically all teach the same cases and same curriculum. Aside from alumni, schools are selected based on how intelligent they perceive the student body. If you believe ND kids broke the mid-160s but aren't sure about U of I, you may be less inclined to hire a student who isn't at the top of the class.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:39 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
illini22 wrote:
Hahah, love the people who just "say what comes to their mind" without any real basis, great way of thinking for future lawyers. If anything, OCI will likely be somewhat larger next year than the previous (thanks to the new career service people, who went from 2 people to five and they fired that incompetent director). Some of the firms are already signed up and unless they are rushing to sign up for OCI, by this time last year there were less firms had signed up. And I see new names that did not come last year.


I don't think he's a future lawyer, he runs a prep company.

But for anyone else reading - the idea that firms think anything different about Illinois right now is absurd and obviously just based on conjecture. The scandal broke while I and a lot of my friends were still doing callbacks and it didn't affect offers at all. None of the associates or partners I talked to thought anything negative about Illinois students or Illinois as a school in general because of it. Alums at these firms are still looking to hire Illinois students, they're still coming to OCI. As far as I know the 1l class didn't have any trouble getting work for the summer. The real test will be this year's OCI and I fully admit I could be wrong and you will see some sort of mass exodus of firms from our OCI but there has been literally no indication of that happening.

It obviously wouldn't influence current students in interviews or callbacks. It's not their fault that it just so happened the dean they didn't hire or had no responsibility for is a liar, but it does leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth about the school at least compared to Notre Dame. You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND, and frankly, how much were the numbers fudged? These schools basically all teach the same cases and same curriculum. Aside from alumni, schools are selected based on how intelligent they perceive the student body. If you believe ND kids broke the mid-160s but aren't sure about U of I, you may be less inclined to hire a student who isn't at the top of the class.


I don't buy that. If they care so much about LSAT scores, they can just ask the candidate.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby AffordablePrep » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:43 pm

I wasn't saying U of I is totally dying.

It will bounce back, I'm sure.

But ND is a shade better, in my opinion. At around equal cost, I'd take ND. My point is that even if you go to a school where they'll ask you because they don't 100% trust your school means your school did you a disservice that schools around it ranking wise wouldn't do.

In this situation I'd take U of I.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby zozin » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:47 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND,

Dude, what are you talking about? Prior to this scandal, nobody thought crap like this happened at Illinois either.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby AffordablePrep » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:19 pm

zozin wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND,

Dude, what are you talking about? Prior to this scandal, nobody thought crap like this happened at Illinois either.

i just think the whole catholic lawyer thing - i mean i'd be shocked if they lied to boost rankings. having met the head admissions lady at ND, i just couldn't see her taking a million dollar bribe to lie about what the IU dude lied about. i'm probably biased, because she's so nice, but idk it'd be so particularly hypocritical for that particular school i'd be stunned.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:21 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:
zozin wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND,

Dude, what are you talking about? Prior to this scandal, nobody thought crap like this happened at Illinois either.

i just think the whole catholic lawyer thing - i mean i'd be shocked if they lied to boost rankings. having met the head admissions lady at ND, i just couldn't see her taking a million dollar bribe to lie about what the IU dude lied about. i'm probably biased, because she's so nice, but idk it'd be so particularly hypocritical for that particular school i'd be stunned.


You're incredible naive or biased. Everyone is corrupt in theory. It just depends on how much and whether they get caught.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby iowalum » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:26 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:
zozin wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND,

Dude, what are you talking about? Prior to this scandal, nobody thought crap like this happened at Illinois either.

i just think the whole catholic lawyer thing - i mean i'd be shocked if they lied to boost rankings. having met the head admissions lady at ND, i just couldn't see her taking a million dollar bribe to lie about what the IU dude lied about. i'm probably biased, because she's so nice, but idk it'd be so particularly hypocritical for that particular school i'd be stunned.


You really think Catholics are better than everyone else? It sounds like everyone really liked the guy at Illinois that lied too... before he lied.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:29 pm

iowalum wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:
zozin wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND,

Dude, what are you talking about? Prior to this scandal, nobody thought crap like this happened at Illinois either.

i just think the whole catholic lawyer thing - i mean i'd be shocked if they lied to boost rankings. having met the head admissions lady at ND, i just couldn't see her taking a million dollar bribe to lie about what the IU dude lied about. i'm probably biased, because she's so nice, but idk it'd be so particularly hypocritical for that particular school i'd be stunned.


You really think Catholics are better than everyone else? It sounds like everyone really liked the guy at Illinois that lied too... before he lied.


In fact, the reason these kinds of situations happen is because people trust ONE guy too much and give him too much control with no checks and balances.

Here is a story that seems relevant now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy_HL7wj1_w

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby mattviphky » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:12 pm

AffordablePrep wrote:It obviously wouldn't influence current students in interviews or callbacks. It's not their fault that it just so happened the dean they didn't hire or had no responsibility for is a liar, but it does leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth about the school at least compared to Notre Dame. You wouldn't hear of this happening at ND, and frankly, how much were the numbers fudged? These schools basically all teach the same cases and same curriculum. Aside from alumni, schools are selected based on how intelligent they perceive the student body. If you believe ND kids broke the mid-160s but aren't sure about U of I, you may be less inclined to hire a student who isn't at the top of the class.


Well Illinois has a higher GPA median. 3.7 v 3.6. But ND has a higher median LSAT. 163 v 166. Sooo, it depends on what you find to be more important. But last year was an outlier for Illinois lsat. So I don't see how that argument is going to hold water. I'm not implying that the median will rocket up next year, but it will most likely climb. Plus if the difference between a 166 and a 163 bothered an interviewer THAT much, they could just ask for the score. FURTHER, I think employers are going to look at law school GPA more than they would undergrad GPA or lsat scores. Since you said the italicized, wouldn't that even the playing field even further? Yep, peer schools in every sense...although ND is better looking, but Illinois is pretty sexy, too.

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Ludo!
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:56 pm

One thing to note - interviewers don't know the difference between a 166 and a 163. When they went to law school those were good scores. They also don't care if you got into Illinois with a low LSAT or if you got a 180 and are there on a free ride plus a 2 million dollar stipend. What they know is that either they went to the school or they have colleagues that went to the school and that Illinois students do good work. Until that changes, job prospects aren't going to change.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby bartleby » Tue May 01, 2012 12:50 am

ND got like three or four 5 star prospects

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givemea170
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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby givemea170 » Tue May 01, 2012 12:58 am

bartleby wrote:ND got like three or four 5 star prospects


haha... I'm a die hard Illini fan, so I'm actually trying to do my best to not let athletics influence this decision at all.

Notre Dame football is pretty exciting... Illini basketball is still historically far superior to ND though.

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby flem » Tue May 01, 2012 9:20 am

AffordablePrep wrote:i just think the whole catholic lawyer thing - i mean i'd be shocked if they lied to boost rankings. having met the head admissions lady at ND, i just couldn't see her taking a million dollar bribe to lie about what the IU dude lied about. i'm probably biased, because she's so nice, but idk it'd be so particularly hypocritical for that particular school i'd be stunned.


Are you trolling bro?

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Re: Notre Dame vs University of Illinois

Postby allamerican73 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:01 am

AffordablePrep wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
AffordablePrep wrote:33% is too much to take ND for even though U of I is on the way down.

It's more an issue of the fact that ND isn't amazing.


Nobody can really say Illinois is 'on the way down'. It went down in the rankings this year because of the shit medians but it didn't somehow become a worse law school because of the scandal. I think there may be some long term impact in terms of not being able to attract as many good applicants (the amount of should I go to Illinois threads this year is astounding and I think the scandal has a lot to do with it) but if that's the case it will take years for hiring to reflect that.

it's not the rankings i'm talking about. they're equal there (relatively).

it is the scandal, and how firms perceive them now.


FWIW, this simply isn't true. A rogue admissions officer fudging numbers for a couple of years doesn't change a law firm's perception of a century old law school. ND and Illinois are peer schools--choose the one that is the best fit for you. Good luck!




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