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Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:42 pm
by jenesaislaw
rad lulz wrote:So Paul Campos called yall out on his blog, and said that part of the reason yall do this is because yall don't have jobs.

In the alternative, if you're affiliated with Vanderbilt's or NYU's law school, you might try to help your alums out a little more, so that your extremely intelligent, hard-working, and public-spirited graduates don't end up with quite so much time on their hands.


I know Obs caught the magic unicorn and got some sort of sick international law job, but what do the rest of yall do on the day to day?


I know Paul, and that wasn't a call out. That was poor wording.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:44 pm
by jenesaislaw
answer23 wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:
answer23 wrote:Can you explain why Georgetown's score is so low at 67%? Is it possible that the JD preferred jobs that their student's are getting might be desirable ones in dc think tanks etc.


Sure, it is possible that the JD-preferred jobs are desirable ones in DC, but it's more likely that these were not their first choices unless the composition of GULC's class has drastically changed. It's also likely that a good number are people returning to their pre-law school employer (or stayed with their current employer if they were part-time students.)

Just a few years ago GULC had just a small, small handful of people in JD-preferred jobs. We're talking about 2% of the class compared to over 19% for the class of 2010.

What makes more sense: GULC graduates are having trouble getting the jobs they want or GULC admitted significantly more people who want to pursue JD-preferred jobs? The truth is that the thinktank jobs have always been hard to get, and this didn't change, especially not as nonprofit funding has dried up.



I see that their under employment score is only 6.2%. How is the JD preferred category weighted in the overall score. Is JD-preferred considered undesirable, desirable or somewhere in between?


Right, the data are somewhere in between. Desirability is way too job-specific, within all categories. For example, is working for 30k, no job security, and a 70 hours per week as a lawyer in a 2-10 firm shop desirable? Probably not, but it's a positive in the Employment Score. Likewise, a policy job that's JDP is probably desirable, but a paralegal position that's also JDP is almost assuredly not.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:18 pm
by DerekTokaz
jenesaislaw wrote:
answer23 wrote:Can you explain why Georgetown's score is so low at 67%? Is it possible that the JD preferred jobs that their student's are getting might be desirable ones in dc think tanks etc.


Sure, it is possible that the JD-preferred jobs are desirable ones in DC, but it's more likely that these were not their first choices unless the composition of GULC's class has drastically changed. It's also likely that a good number are people returning to their pre-law school employer (or stayed with their current employer if they were part-time students.)

Just a few years ago GULC had just a small, small handful of people in JD-preferred jobs. We're talking about 2% of the class compared to over 19% for the class of 2010.

What makes more sense: GULC graduates are having trouble getting the jobs they want or GULC admitted significantly more people who want to pursue JD-preferred jobs? The truth is that the thinktank jobs have always been hard to get, and this didn't change, especially not as nonprofit funding has dried up.

I just want to add one thing to Kyle's response. The burden of showing that these are desirable jobs really falls on Georgetown. We've heard plenty of professors and others talk about how JD preferred jobs can be good, but they treat speculation as fact. If Georgetown is a great feeder for a non-traditional career path it needs to be collecting data about that so it can help prospective students make an informed choice.

There is a lot of information Georgetown is not releasing. Specifically, it doesn't release salary information for JD Preferred jobs, nor for Government or Public Interest. It also does not release info about the timing of a job offer (which goes a lot towards showing if students are having a hard time finding work), and it does not release information on how the students found the job. It's in the NALP report, Georgetown has that report, and they just don't want you to see the numbers.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:11 pm
by Lord Randolph McDuff
Loving that 1.5% of University of Hawaii's got jobs in Arkansas. Gotta be a great story.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:15 pm
by observationalist
jenesaislaw wrote:
rad lulz wrote:So Paul Campos called yall out on his blog, and said that part of the reason yall do this is because yall don't have jobs.

In the alternative, if you're affiliated with Vanderbilt's or NYU's law school, you might try to help your alums out a little more, so that your extremely intelligent, hard-working, and public-spirited graduates don't end up with quite so much time on their hands.


I know Obs caught the magic unicorn and got some sort of sick international law job, but what do the rest of yall do on the day to day?


I know Paul, and that wasn't a call out. That was poor wording.


I should point out my work pays very little in U.S. dollars, and without the federal IBR program and an SO who makes a relatively decent salary I would be very limited in the amount of time I could dedicate to any of the groups I work with. That said, if anyone wants to dedicate their class gifts to LST instead of their law school we could very much use the money to have an even greater impact on legal education. There's so much we could be doing with more time and greater resources.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:24 pm
by rad lulz
Obs and JNSL, if I get an offer from this summer I'll throw y'all a hundo in appreciation for all the good word that y'all do and the job search help. You can hold me to that.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:43 pm
by DerekTokaz
rad lulz wrote:I know Obs caught the magic unicorn and got some sort of sick international law job, but what do the rest of yall do on the day to day?

I'm a drunk.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:44 pm
by observationalist
DerekTokaz wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I know Obs caught the magic unicorn and got some sort of sick international law job, but what do the rest of yall do on the day to day?

I'm a drunk.


Oh to be a writer... [stock photo of the LST team removed]

And rad you just focus on what you gotta do, and if things work out we will gladly take your money. I appreciate the support.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:06 pm
by thelawyler
rad lulz wrote:Obs and JNSL, if I get an offer from this summer I'll throw y'all a hundo in appreciation for all the good word that y'all do and the job search help. You can hold me to that.

I'm a 0L, but I'll def toss some money over once I get some secure employment. Or if I do I guess.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:48 am
by jenesaislaw
Thanks everybody, we appreciate your support.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:59 am
by minnbills
I'd love to make a contribution at some point (we'll see how things are going by 3L year lol)

By the way, I heard you on NPR the other day, nice going

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:01 am
by 071816
Image

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:36 am
by jenesaislaw
minnbills wrote:I'd love to make a contribution at some point (we'll see how things are going by 3L year lol)

By the way, I heard you on NPR the other day, nice going


I assume you mean the show in Minnesota since your name is minnbills?

That was an interesting experience to say the least. I really enjoyed it, but damn it's hard to be perfectly on point for an hour. I still replay one of the questions and answers in my head that I genuinely botched. Patrick/Obs was gchatting with me during it and he agreed immediately ha.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:06 am
by thelawyler
jenesaislaw wrote:
minnbills wrote:I'd love to make a contribution at some point (we'll see how things are going by 3L year lol)

By the way, I heard you on NPR the other day, nice going


I assume you mean the show in Minnesota since your name is minnbills?

That was an interesting experience to say the least. I really enjoyed it, but damn it's hard to be perfectly on point for an hour. I still replay one of the questions and answers in my head that I genuinely botched. Patrick/Obs was gchatting with me during it and he agreed immediately ha.


Mind replaying it on TLS for us? hhaha

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:21 am
by observationalist
thelawyler wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:
minnbills wrote:I'd love to make a contribution at some point (we'll see how things are going by 3L year lol)

By the way, I heard you on NPR the other day, nice going


I assume you mean the show in Minnesota since your name is minnbills?

That was an interesting experience to say the least. I really enjoyed it, but damn it's hard to be perfectly on point for an hour. I still replay one of the questions and answers in my head that I genuinely botched. Patrick/Obs was gchatting with me during it and he agreed immediately ha.


Mind replaying it on TLS for us? hhaha


You can listen to it here if you want... http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... l-worth-it

Also Jonathan Adler wrote a great piece last night on Volokh about how the debt estimates in the Data Clearinghouse were based on faulty reporting to U.S. News. We spent most of yesterday reviewing the websites for every ABA-approved law school and revising the costs of attendance. Previously we were using the numbers reported to U.S. News, but it turned out most of the schools have underreported the costs to the magazine. Here's the direct link (with a response from Kyle down in the comments): http://volokh.com/2012/05/03/misreporti ... -518528609

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:03 am
by grimfan
Wow, great work, though it's going to take me a while to fully understand everything.

Is "Employment Score" the big fish here?

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:05 am
by minnbills
jenesaislaw wrote:
minnbills wrote:I'd love to make a contribution at some point (we'll see how things are going by 3L year lol)

By the way, I heard you on NPR the other day, nice going


I assume you mean the show in Minnesota since your name is minnbills?

That was an interesting experience to say the least. I really enjoyed it, but damn it's hard to be perfectly on point for an hour. I still replay one of the questions and answers in my head that I genuinely botched. Patrick/Obs was gchatting with me during it and he agreed immediately ha.


Ah, I wasn't sure if it was a nationally broadcast thing or not. The Prof was from SLU if I remember correctly so I figured it was national.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:15 am
by answer23
Can you elaborate on how full time staff attorneys are weighed? I've heard that some firms hire staff attorneys but won't even call them attorneys. Their title is either special assignment legal assistants or legal analyst. Their job is basically case management and supervising temp document reviewers which is identical to what regular legal assistants on a 2 year commitment do. Does the big firm placement only include associates or are they also included in the big firm category? It's not clear.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:08 am
by DerekTokaz
answer23 wrote:Can you elaborate on how full time staff attorneys are weighed? I've heard that some firms hire staff attorneys but won't even call them attorneys. Their title is either special assignment legal assistants or legal analyst. Their job is basically case management and supervising temp document reviewers which is identical to what regular legal assistants on a 2 year commitment do. Does the big firm placement only include associates or are they also included in the big firm category? It's not clear.

If it's a job that requires bar passage, they're counted as bar passage required and are treated the same as regular associated for our employment score.

The NALP report would shed some light on this issue, by telling us about the salaries by firm size (making $70k at a 501+ firm would be a red flag) and there's a section that breaks down the type of law firm jobs. I don't know if they'd still list themselves as attorneys for the type of law firm job question, but they might end up in the "Other" category. What we really need is for the NALP survey to ask if the position is associate/partner-track.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:24 pm
by minnbills
Do you have a sense of how people not passing the bar influences employment data?

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:36 pm
by DerekTokaz
minnbills wrote:Do you have a sense of how people not passing the bar influences employment data?

Once again, an issue where the NALP reports would be extremely useful.

One of the sections reports when students get their jobs: before graduation, after graduation but before bar results, and after getting bar results. The more students get their jobs after bar results, the more it looks like employment is tied to passing the bar. (If you fail the exam, set your sights lower, and then get a McJob, you're still counted as getting it after bar results, but the conclusion should be the same, that bar results impact job placement.)

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:53 pm
by thelawyler

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:25 pm
by princeR
You guys know everything about employment it seems. I have done my research, but, if you wouldn't mind giving me your opinion about the school I want to attend in general, that is, Notre Dame. Would you say the employment numbers look good, in your opinion? I understand I could probably find this information on my own, and for the most part I have, but I weigh your (LST) very highly. Thanks for the work, you guys are amazing!

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:00 pm
by minnbills
It would probably help if you gave them an idea of what "good" means to you.

Re: Law School Transparency's Class of 2010 Data Clearinghouse

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:14 pm
by princeR
minnbills wrote:It would probably help if you gave them an idea of what "good" means to you.

Good point. I am not too concerned with biglaw, so I guess in general what they think the employment data about NDLS says? I'm actually not really sure how else to word it. I mean, on LST it shows 84% employment rating, is that "good"?